Immigration laws

[Deleted]

I understand that you can't let everybody in the world emigrate to any other country at will, but I really think that most of the countries of the world -- especially the ageing post-industrial countries -- have placed far too many restrictions on immigration.

France started slamming the door shut in 1974 after the first "oil shock" -- unemployment skyrocketed and public opinion decided (with a little help) that immigrants were taking the food out of our mouths.

This was probably fantastic for the economy, because legal immigration turned into illegal immigration -- with people working without social charges, medical coverage, retirement funds or any protection of their job at all. What a magnificent triumph of capitalism!

And immigrants are such a fantastic scapegoat for the government -- they are responsible for all the crime, overloaded hospitals, urban filth and even epidemics while the citizens suffer (and vote for the people who will crack down the hardest).

Am I the only person furious about this manipulation?

[bixaorellana]

I will post at greater length when my hands stop hurting from applauding your statement above!

[bixaorellana]

Following a fairly infuriating article in the NYTimes*, I came across two editorial pieces perfectly illustrating Kerouac's point about political uses for the whole issue of immigration.
Xenophobia: Fear-Mongering for American Votes and Xenophobia: Casting Out the Un-French

It's fairly easy for politicians to use xenophobia for their own purposes as so many people of the voting public would deny being xenophobic. To prove it, they'd cite pointless anecdotes of the "my best friend in high school" variety. But it's precisely that lazy habit of relying of relying on anecdotal evidence for ones world view that allows stereotypes and hidden-agenda politicians to do so well.

I think people cling to their xenophobia because it seems right to them on some instinctive level. Not-like-me-and-mine equals potential danger.

* The Mexican Border’s Lost World <-- The writer of this sneakily slanted piece refers to himself as a journalist, I suppose to plant the idea that his crap is fact and not b.s. that seems designed to fan xenophobia. He harps on the sinful lure of the Mexican border to the point the reader would think it's one vast whorehouse. If you doubt my word, just read the excerpt he quotes from On the Road. In a quest to shore up his spurious premise, he's missed the point of the very thing he quotes.

[cristina]

Unfortunately, history has an unpleasant tendency to repeat itself.

High unemployment will cause people to look around and see who is taking "their" jobs. During the Depression, the state of California put patrols at their border to keep people from from other US states from entering...primarily American migrant laborers who were victims of the Dust Bowl.

Also during the same period, under the Mexican Repatriation Act,
hundreds of thousands of American citizens of Mexican descent were rounded up and deported, without any due process.

During less than optimal economic times, I think its probably human nature to individually feel that "outsiders" are taking jobs away from citizens. But it is inexcusable for political leadership to help fan the flames. Because it just always results in an increase in violence and hate crimes.

I am certainly seeing it in AZ as our recently enacted Immigration Bill is fanning flames of hate. As well the movement to rewrite the 14th Amendment. I really wish our elected officials would work a little harder at constructive unity rather encouraging an atmosphere of resentment and hostility.

But I suppose that is just wishful thinking.

[Deleted]

After the latest disgraceful Roma witch hunt in France, many Roma are deciding to leave the country. My young Roma beggar seems to be planning to leave with her family. "Have you seen television?" she asked me.

[Deleted]

The U.S. Senate is having a 'special 'session today,to vote on the new Immigration Law being proposed...

After Hurricane Katrina in 2005,New Orleans and much of the region had a major influx of Hispanic workers flocking to the area for employment. Many people were up in arms so to speak about this. Non documented,illegal aliens,whatever people chose to call these hard working persons.
Overtime, however,it became evident,that indeed hard working and available to work for low,really low wages,they became a vital part of the recovery work force.
Many property owners,who also had vacant houses available,with deplorable living conditions,housed these workers,sometimes a dozen people to a small apartment,with only one bathroom. It was horrible! The workers could not complain,or demand more,because they would then be ousted,told to move on,or worse,told that the authorities would be notified and they would face imprisonment or be deported. It was a horrible situation indeed,and probably remains so more or less still.
Every once in a great while,a sweep of the predominant areas where the workers congregated would occur,authorities would come by and run these people off,I don't think many were arrested unless criminal activity was in evidence,it was all done to show the general public that they were doing something to address the problem. By and large,a blind eye was cast over the whole situation. Many of these same authorities were employing the same workers.

[bixaorellana]

Cristina, you have certainly pinpointed one of the major grudges that people have against "outsiders", that of taking jobs that "rightfully belong" to real, red-blooded citizens of a country. Further, as Kerouac pointed out, it's awfully useful to have an exploitable pool of workers.

Casimira's example of the local authorities employing non-documented workers is something that has occurred on a large scale all across the US for a very long time, particularly with agricultural workers.

It's not necessarily authorities who employ the workers, but those authorities may find it expedient for either personal gain or political pressure to turn a blind eye to big growers almost exclusively using foreign workers in some areas.

And not to stick up for businesses that make a practice of hiring workers with dubious documentation, but often those businesses are not exactly beating off local workers eager to be hired.

It's a real Catch-22 situation with illegal workers. One of my sisters lives on the Texas/Mexico border and has pointed out that all the regular middle-class people in her area who hire maids, nannies, gardeners, etc. are not actually taking away jobs from US citizens, because if they had to pay the other charges as cited by Kerouac in the OP, they wouldn't be able to afford those workers. (Of course that does lead you smack into the moral question of what is owed to people who depend on you for their livelihood.) Further, those undocumented workers actually help the local economy, as they drop a hefty amount of money in the stores on the border before returning home each evening. In that sense, people are happy to have them. The flip side of that are the very same people who employ the undocumented foreigners without paying social security or anything else, will rage about "them" coming to the Texas side already in labor in order to have their babies on US soil and thus unfairly gaining free hospitalization, social care for the newborn citizen, etc.

Certainly that may happen, but it can't be used against "them" without hard statistical evidence that it's causing a drain on the economy.

But what about European countries that have excellent social programs, but are much smaller and with a consequent smaller tax base than the US? Can they absorb the number of workers from poorer countries who want entry, or from the large number of political refugees who understandably need to flee their own countries?

[hwinpp]

If they work they can be absorbed. I think most do work.

But if they don't, they cost money.

[betsie]

I live in a country that has been overrun by non-western unqualified and uneducated immigrants. The results are appalling. The government had the courage to publish the results of definitive research a few years ago: economically, all the predicted benefits of this wave of immigration has been wiped out by these immigrants' heavy toll on our social services. We don't complain of them taking our jobs here, since they prefer not to work and are not qualified for most jobs.

So we have gained zilch financially and have tremendous social problems to deal with now.

It should never have been allowed in Europe's most densely populated country, but liberal thought ruled politics and all our institutions in the 70s and 80s, so we had to let them in to prove we were not racist.

Welfare states, such as the UK, France and Holland, attract the wrong sort of immigrants. Canada and the US attract the right sort: people who integrate and are of an independent nature and are willing to stand on their own feet financially.

I don't believe in the myth of the multicultural society; I like the American version of integration with diversity.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry that you think that things have not worked out in the Netherlands, betsie. I certainly believe the situation gives great cause for optimism in France, as I tried to point out in this stillborn thread.

A remarkable percentage of the current generation of writers, actors and musicians, not to mention scientists and scholars, in France were born of extremely modest immigrant parents, often unskilled factory workers or cleaning staff, and yet the French school system offered them a chance to succeed alongside the ethnic French.

I live in one of the most mixed neighborhoods of Paris (being ethnic French, I am in the minority), and there is not a hint of racial or ethnic tension, and most of the people are hard at work. I know that Paris is far better off than a lot of other French towns, but the desire everywhere is to live together in harmony.

I do not see any superior success on other continents, just different methods.

[betsie]

Sept 14, 2010 17:27:09 GMT kerouac2 said:

I'm sorry that you think that things have not worked out in the Netherlands, betsie. I certainly believe the situation gives great cause for optimism in France, as I tried to point out in this stillborn thread.

A remarkable percentage of the current generation of writers, actors and musicians, not to mention scientists and scholars, in France were born of extremely modest immigrant parents, often unskilled factory workers or cleaning staff, and yet the French school system offered them a chance to succeed alongside the ethnic French.

I live in one of the most mixed neighborhoods of Paris (being ethnic French, I am in the minority), and there is not a hint of racial or ethnic tension, and most of the people are hard at work. I know that Paris is far better off than a lot of other French towns, but the desire everywhere is to live together in harmony.

I do not see any superior success on other continents, just different methods.

Well I'm glad to hear it, Kerouac, but I have heard very different reports from France too. One place in particular was appalling, pity I've forgotten the name and lost the link.

The problem in the Netherlands is mainly Moroccan immigrants. They resist integration, resist education and free vocational training and have caused tremendous social unrest, terrorising our cities. Our mistake was to wrap them in cotton wool and patronise them, instead of demanding that they toe the line like everyone else.

Everything has been tried, without success. One of our leading Moroccan-born politicians says it's down to the culture, which is a hard and aggressive one. I'll post a link about him when I have time to dig it out.

Other groups cause no problems whatsoever, like the Chinese, Yugoslavians, Iranians, etc. They do not live on welfare and their kids are high achievers in school and have no trouble learning the language and integrating.


www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-662/i.html


www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,497404,00.html


Labour Party MP Ahmed Marcouch, himself a Moroccan, is also calling for much tougher measures on Moroccans who are attacking and threatening paramedics, firemen and hospital staff.


40,000 Dutch Jews have been the targets of hatemails, graffiti and incidents involving violence, an increase of 64% in 2009. According to the Dutch media, many of the perpetrators are Dutch citizens of Moroccan origin, whipped up by jihad websites, to play an Middle-East form of cowboys and Indians whereby the "Palestinians" jump on the nearest Jew.

[cristina]

I won't vouch for any success in the US or Canada, as it really is rather hard for me to judge unless I've lived in a few countries first. But I will say that integration with diversity in the US has eventually worked...but never without racism or religious intolerance of some kind along the way. It has never been smooth sailing.

On another note, here is an article about the trouble large farms in California are having in finding workers to pick crops. Out of 1,160 open jobs, only 233 applied. Only the farms that go through the guest worker process can hire non-US citizens, but this is a bit expensive for the smaller farmers.

I'm still forming my thoughts around this because I think the message of this article says a lot.

[bixaorellana]

Hmmm. I see what you mean about needing some time to form ones thoughts. I read it through twice, and was left with questions. One was, are the state employment agencies really promoting these jobs? Another was about housing. The article states that many of these farms are in isolated locations. Do the employers provide any kind of housing during the season? How do farm workers find out about available jobs, anyway?

Of course those are jobs performed under often unpleasant conditions. But you have to wonder if people waiting around in a labor pool to be picked up for unskilled labor jobs wouldn't like to have the farm work if they knew about it.

[fumobici]

When I hear of positions going unfilled I can only think that the offered pay rate and work conditions are simply inadequate to attract qualified talent. In the real world any position can be filled assuming anyone alive is qualified by the simple expedient of providing sufficient incentives. Why should farm work be any different?

[Deleted]

Absolutely. If we think that office workers and various professionals should be paid what they're worth instead of the absolute minimum possible, then we should feel the same way about farm workers and manual laborers. If not, why not import illegal qualified Indians or Chinese to our offices and factories and pay them 70% less?

My company has positions unfilled at the moment because it thinks it can find people for minimum wage when it actually needs to pay about 40% more to get someone to do those jobs.

What's tragic is that we have at least 5 people out on long term sick leave because they weren't able to keep the work at an adequate level due to the missing workers. We are in a downward spiral out of greed.

[bixaorellana]

Here's an interesting exploitation of a loophole:

...
Canadian authorities announced this week that they had broken up a circuitous but ingenious human smuggling ring that shuttled Romanians 11,000 miles from Europe to Mexico and across the U.S. to the famously porous border between the twin communities of Derby Line, Vermont, and Stanstead, Quebec.
...
... the Romanians are largely ethnic Roma people, or Gypsies. Canadian officials say many of the immigrants move to Toronto and Montreal, which have large Roma communities.
...
A 2004 agreement between the U.S. and Canada in how the two countries deal with asylum seekers is driving the latest migration, experts told the AP.
...
If the Romanians were to present themselves at a Canadian border post, they would be refused entry and told to seek asylum in the United States, which has more difficult requirements and where asylum seekers are not eligible for welfare benefits.

Romanians seeking to enter the U.S. or Canada need pre-approved visas. They do not need visas to enter Mexico.

Once in Canada, the asylum seekers are freed in most cases from detention while their asylum claims are pending, a process that can take years. At the same time, they are eligible to receive public assistance benefits.

Read the full article here.

[Deleted]

A few years ago, there was an excellent movie about illegal immigration around that part of the border.

[bixaorellana]

Oh, I loved that movie! It was the first thing I thought of when I read the article on the Romanians. I'll bet the unfolding of plans and sheer nerves that culminated in the brazen drive into Quebec would make a great movie, too.

[rikita]

people seem to always think that just because they are born somewhere where they have access to jobs, education, a social net etc. that they are somehow morally more entitled to this than people born elsewhere - and that thus those that come here are taking away something that is rightfully "theirs"...

[bjd]

Well, to be fair -- people who have lived somewhere for years, worked and paid their taxes might feel they are more entitled to education, social services and health care than people who arrive from elsewhere.

This is particularly true in Canada where asylum seekers are not supposed to work, hence are entitled to free housing, welfare, health services and education while waiting for their claims to be processed, which indeed takes years. (see #15)

[mossie]

We suffer the same problems in England, compounded by the fact that many work in the black economy Or they came with the express intention of petty crime, pickpocketing, ATM fraud etc.

[tod2]

At the moment all is/ or seems to be calm. The population of South Africa has now realized that our neighbors from across the northern border are far more educated and willing to work - they don't like that so started persecuting them. Even murdering them. They work in hidden employment mostly.

[rikita]

well here asylum seekers aren't allowed to work either - but most would want to. and the free housing they get is crap (lots of people together in small rooms in areas no one wants to live), the money they get is a lot lower than the normal minimum welfare... if you allowed them to work, most would do the hardest, worst jobs, and be happy they are allowed to work... there might be some that come with the intention of getting welfare or of crime - but that isn't the majority, and a lot are more pushed into it than wanting to do that...

and the thing is, that it isn't just the people who have worked for years who say that. often it is young people who have barely even started working and paying taxes.

[Deleted]

In France, official asylum seekers are allowed to work. I don't know in what fields, but I came across an official government unemployment office one day with a queue of about 250 people out front, which surprised me greatly. So I got up close and saw it was the office for asylum seekers.

Another big queue that I see every Tuesday, just a few steps from my apartment, is one that is in front of the France Terre d'Asile NGO. There is always a queue there, but I wondered why it was so much bigger on Tueday. So I looked at the posters in the window and found out that Tuesday is the day that the people get housing vouchers for various cheap hotels. The vouchers are good for two weeks of lodging, and then they have to change to another place. I think this is to protect the hotels' legal status as a place for temporary 'visitors' -- their status and taxation would change if people moved in permanently.

[bixaorellana]

I quite understand Rikita's distaste for the short-sightedness of taxpayers who don't want a penny of their taxes ever to go to "the undeserving".

By the same token, I can see how infuriating it is when a loophole such as that in the article is gleefully pounced upon & exploited to the max.

Dec 7, 2012 12:44:45 GMT bjd said:

This is particularly true in Canada where asylum seekers are not supposed to work, hence are entitled to free housing, welfare, health services and education while waiting for their claims to be processed, which indeed takes years. (see #15)

I really can't understand the ban against their working, since asylum seekers are documented & I imagine the majority of them have no desire to be a drain on their host countries.