Paris, time to eat modestly and beautifully...

[Jazz]

I think it’s time to discuss eating frugally in Paris. This does not mean skimping or eating abysmal food to save a dollar/euro. It means knowing how to use your resources for maximum benefit. To eat pleasurably and simply. One of the delights of being in Paris is to enjoy eating beautifully. This can be done with just a bit of thought. It’s unthinkable and horrible to march from MacDonalds to MacDonalds! (I can hardly bear to type those words)

Yes, the reality is that most Parisiens DO eat for under 100E/day, actually, far, far less…let’s forget Taillevent etc. etc. The average Parisien probably eats for much less than 20E/day, and, very well. Best of all would be to be in contact with someone who lives in Paris and discuss this with them. We do have some members who are very aware, Kerouac, bjd, and lagatta.

Without doubt, the surest way to ease your food budget in Paris is to rent an apartment for your stay, or, a hotel with kitchen facilities. ( Even if you are in a hotel without kitchen, you can still do very well, this will be discussed later) Renting a place with a kitchen has wonderful benefits. Of course you can eat out when you want to, but often it is just too much to eat out, night after night. Tedious, no longer a novelty, and, expensive.

Let’s first discuss life if you have a kitchen. Wherever you may be in Paris, here will be a local market, possibly a street market and many small shops…a bakery, a cheese shop, a vegetable shop, a meat shop, a seafood shop, a delicatessen, and a wine shop. There may also be a Monoprix, a Franprix and a Picard, (famous for delicious frozen food).
www.picard.fr/

Depending on your tastes, you may also journey to the huge supermarkets,
Carrefour , www.carrefour.fr/
You may want to enjoy the bounty of Tang Freres in Chinatown in the 13th. I was there and it was great!
A glimpse in Kerouac’’s Chinatown thread,
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=pictures&thread=1206&page=1#17925

Or, go to the 18th and shop Kerouac’s neighborhood, Indian, Chinese etc.
www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1528781&start=0&tstart=0

There are many markets in Paris,
www.paris.fr/portail/loisirs/Portal.lut?page_id=8393&document_type_id=5&document_id=85004&portlet_id=19551 or,

g.jouis.free.fr/marchesp.php3

Paris in a Basket is a good book about the markets, by arrondissement, with great photos.
www.amazon.ca/Paris-Basket-Nicolle-Aimee-Meyer/dp/3829046243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284318437&sr=8-1

Obviously, there are many markets in Paris. You will be drawn to certain markets that satisfy your individual needs. From my experience you will find a local market wherever you live, and that will be just fine. It is beautiful to be at the market, especially early morning, to talk with the owners of the stalls and to receive their advice and recipes. With time and familiarity you develop a special rapport. A sensual and comfortable experience. You will buy delicious food and prepare it at home, and it will cost much less than eating in a restaurant. The totality of your experience will be far superior to walking into a restaurant and dropping 30E and up. You will have enjoyed the sensuality of the market… the owners of the stalls, unexpected conversations, the smells, the beauty of the fruit, vegetables, cheeses, meats and seafood…like paintings… Thus far, the markets I love the most are Marches Aligre, Richard Lenoir, and Place Maubert. Market streets? I like rue Mouffetarde, rue Montorgueil and rue des Martyrs. However, I know that I would love them all.

Typical Parisian street market (luscious!)
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=paris&thread=3658&page=1#39459

These are just a few comments about having a kitchen and enjoying the totality of the experience of shopping and much money saved. To be continued...eating out, picnics, street food, ethnic Paris, ‘menus’, neighborhood cafes and restaurants, and, the occasional 'splurge'.....

[Deleted]

Excellent beginning for a useful subject, Jazz. One of the things that many visitors (and even a lot of Parisians) do not realize is that even though normal supermarket prices are more or less the same anywhere in the city, this is not at all the case for the merchants in the various market streets. While I will not deny that there can be a difference in quality between the products sold in the market streets of the fancier parts of town compared to my own neighborhood, I am still flabbergasted when I see in many cases that prices are 100% more than in my area. The rotisserie chickens that cost 4 or 5€ in my market street (rue l'Olive) are generally 10€ or more in rue Montorgueil, for example, for the same quality bird (not going into the debate about farm chickens or Bresse chickens, which also cost more in my neighborhood but which are still much cheaper). Same thing for courgettes, tomatoes or the ordinary fruit offerings.

While I think it is rarely worth it to cross town to go shopping, I think the ultimate savings might indicate that people might be better off analyzing details like that when choosing the area where they want to stay in the first place, especially for a longer stay. Hint: if you really want to stay close to the Seine, you're going to have to pay for it in more ways than one.

One last remark. A survey was made the other day about the most popular brands in France, and Picard was #1. (#2 Ikea, #3 Séphora, #4 Décathlon, #5 Amazon)

[bjd]

I agree completely. Our market in rue d'Aligre is often cited as one of the cheapest in Paris. You have a choice between the really cheaper stuff at the beginning, and a bit more expensive further down the street, but the prices are usually much lower than my market here in southern France. This is not the case for supermarket food, where I find the Franprix on rue Aligre much more expensive than anything here.

There is also Saba, a store that has great prices for all kinds of spices, dried fruit, olives. There are several of them in Paris.

[lola]

This is great. I'm forwarding it to my interested party. Thanks, Jazz!

[lagatta]

Where she lives is walkable from marché d'Aligre, though I think marché Bastille is closer. They have different feels, and Aligre is cheaper overall, but I'm sure she'll get to know both of them.

[Jazz]

Thank you, it’s great to have input from those of you who truly understand Paris.

Kerouac:…' While I think it is rarely worth it to cross town to go shopping, I think the ultimate savings might indicate that people might be better off analyzing details like that when choosing the area where they want to stay in the first place, especially for a longer stay. Hint: if you really want to stay close to the Seine, you're going to have to pay for it in more ways than one'…...

Great advice, this is often not considered in the first few visits. But, I do now.
On most visits, I found that most of the time I would shop for dinner en route home and this encouraged my exploration of local sources…I didn’t want to lug bags of food across the city. This laziness led me to wonderful, previously overlooked places in my own neighborhood. Mornings at the market are best and when I lived on rue Maitre Albert,(5th) with the lovely market, Place Maubert, only a 3 minute walk away, my daily ritual was to have breakfast at the café, watch the market being set up, (3 days a week) shop, enjoy conversations with the vendors and wisk my bags to my studio. Then, go off for the day. I’m not sure if it was more expensive, but I loved that it was ‘my’ market. This daily ritual for 30 days led to a lovely relationship with my waiter, not romantic, but feeling a part of something, brief conversations and, earnest and thoughtful recommendations from him for each day of my explorations.


bjd:… 'Our market in rue d'Aligre is often cited as one of the cheapest in Paris. You have a choice between the really cheaper stuff at the beginning, and a bit more expensive further down the street, but the prices are usually much lower than my market here in southern France…... There is also Saba, a store that has great prices for all kinds of spices, dried fruit, olives. There are several of them in Paris'…..

I must say that I totally enjoyed Marche d’Aligre and went there often. afoodiefroggy.canalblog.com/archives/2007/02/21/4081006.html


I am surprised that the prices there were lower than your market in southern France! I have never been to a Saba store, tried to search it online and came up with nothing. It sounds great, do you have a website?

One day I found a great store that I enjoyed for spices, dried fruits, olives, gifts and totally sensual moments…. and returned often, Izrael, l'Epicerie du Monde 30 rue Fancois Miron, Paris 4th arrondissement. love this video,


and, www.wherescool.com/spots/izrael-lepicerie-du-monde-paris/

Anyone who lives in the 11th is perfectly poised to enjoy both Marche d’Aligre and Marche Bastille.

[Jazz]

The cafe...Each time that I have visited Paris, I would research endlessly about recommended cafes and restaurants.(to be discussed later) This was pleasurable research, but I completely disregarded (forgot?) most recommendations and found my own special places. This is highly individual and we each discover what we love. Once again, as with food shopping, the arrondisssement of the café dictates prices. A simple stop at a café on the Champs Elysees can wipe out your food budget for the day. If you must go, look, leave, and relax elsewhere.

Here are a few cafes that I loved,

Café le Conti, 1 rue de Buci, Paris 6th, untourist.net/2010/02/18/food-in-france-le-conti/
The 6th was not at all my preferred area, but it was only a half hours walk from my studio. One day I arrived mid day, starving, and enjoyed their generous house salad, warm goat cheese with apple and greens, and bread. It was delicious and inexpensive, 9E. The location of the café is exceptional, at the crossroads of several streets, rue Dauphine, rue Mazarine, and rue de Buci…each worth an individual walk and exploration….all led to the Seine. I returned there often and one of my favorite walks was along rue Dauphine, with a very good bookshop, Le Couleur du Temps. There is a sociable ‘cafe dog’ who became friends with all of us, and draped himself carelessly over the sidewalk onto the street…all cars took note of him and veered considerately.

Café des Editeurs, Paris 6th www.lesediteurs.fr/
Once again, in an area that I did not frequent, but I liked it. Mornings were best here, with an inexpensive breakfast and many books and newspapers provided for you to read.

Place des Vosges, Paris 4th. Often I began my day here, either at Ma Bourgogne, www.ma-bourgogne.fr/vosges_uk.html or, at the equally enjoyable (but cheaper) café on the opposite side of the square.

The Boat, Paris 5th It was moored at Quai de la Tournelle, on the west side of the Seine and facing Ile de la Cite and Ile Saint Louis. They offered coffee, drinks and the 3 meals of the day. Their prices were surprisingly low. I loved to have breakfast here, or, a late night drink, and watch the boats passing by, loving the flow of the river, and looking at the two islands. Very special.

La Mosquee de Paris, 5th. www.la-mosquee.com/htmluk/entreeuk.htm
Lagatta mentioned this and I totally agree. Each time I visit Paris I come here. It’s lovely, for tea and a pastry, or, lunch or dinner. The outdoor garden is beautiful, the prices, modest. A trip to the mosque and/or the hamman is very worthwhile. If you go, you are close to the Arab Institute, also well worth a visit. www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/L_Institut_du_Monde_Arabe.html

La Palette, 43 rue de Seine, 6th. www.girlsguidetoparis.com/whatshot/blog-posts-by-tag/Hemingway/347 This site also gives info to other established and by now, totally over established cafes. I’ve been to them all, but enjoyed La Palette the most. The untouched interiors with wall paintings and tiles are wonderful. Good service, good prices, close to the Seine.

Le China, 50 rue de Charenton, Paris 12th. www.lechina.eu/
It’s changed hands since I was there in 07, but it was great then. I felt as though I was in China, 1930’s.

Les Trois Mailletz. Paris 5th. www.lestroismailletz.fr/. I spent two incredible evenings here, It is on rue Saint Jacques and close to the Seine. The music varies, and if you go to the beautiful stone basement (where it really happens), don’t bother showing up until 11PM,(2300)… which is when it all begins to happen. (they serve food, I recommend their fabulous and cheap mussels and frites dish). The first and most remarkable evening was Middle Eastern music…as the night wore on the music became wilder and more pure. One beautiful young North African singer gave the most haunting and exquisite performance that I have ever heard in my life. I could never find out who she was. Throughout the night, members of the audience jumped up on the tables and sang and danced. The evening ended about 5AM.(0500)

These are a few of the places that I liked. There are many, many more, but I don’t remember their names. I completely remember the experience, but not the details, and they will forever be private. Most of you will find the same thing…odd, unknown, but beautiful cafes, rich with memory.

Wherever I was living, there aways seemed to be one or two local cafes that I enjoyed. Most days began and ended at these cafes.

[bjd]

The Arab guys at the beginning of Aligre market have unbeatable prices. The day I left Paris 2 weeks ago, I bought a basket of 10 limes for 1€. Nice ones, not half rotten. The place I live is on the more expensive side of Toulouse and the market reflects the prices. Of course, some of the producers have cheaper prices, but generally in Toulouse, the cheapest market is a big one held downtown every day except Monday. But it's not usually worth it for me.

Sorry, Jazz, I don't have a website for Saba. They have a tiny store on rue du Fbg St Antoine, and around the corner, on the corner of rue Aligre and rue Crozatier is a bigger store. I have also noticed one on Blvd Davout, and there is probably another one somewhere. They don't need a website -- they get lots of customers as it is.

[Jazz]

Sept 7, 2010 6:16:56 GMT bjd said:

The Arab guys at the beginning of Aligre market have unbeatable prices. The day I left Paris 2 weeks ago, I bought a basket of 10 limes for 1€. Nice ones, not half rotten. The place I live is on the more expensive side of Toulouse and the market reflects the prices. Of course, some of the producers have cheaper prices, but generally in Toulouse, the cheapest market is a big one held downtown every day except Monday. But it's not usually worth it for me.

Sorry, Jazz, I don't have a website for Saba. They have a tiny store on rue du Fbg St Antoine, and around the corner, on the corner of rue Aligre and rue Crozatier is a bigger store. I have also noticed one on Blvd Davout, and there is probably another one somewhere. They don't need a website -- they get lots of customers as it is.

Good news for the Arab boys of Aligre. Saba...you are absolutely right, they don't need a website. But, this is invaluable information for the rest of us, merci, bjd....

[mich64]

Thank you to Jazz for the choices he made available for the 5th and 6th. We have stayed in the 6th, and yes, you see the extra euros added to almost everything so some alternatives in those areas are appreciated to investigate next time.

Everytime I come home from Paris, in my luggage is mustard, any brand, whether I have found it at a deli or a grocery store, I do not care, I just need to have mustard. Also, Knorr tabletttes We have them in Canada, but not the variety, people always ask why my dishes have such a different taste, it is the Knorr. Especially the Bouquet Garni.

[lagatta]

Yay! Another mustard snob! ;D

I think you can buy the Knorr bouquet garni here in Montréal, but hey, if you can go to Paris... Knorr offerings vary by country. We also get a lot of the Maghrebi and Vietnamese Knorr stuff, and Knorr from various Latin American countries.

I usually stay in eastern Paris not only because it is cheaper but it and adjoining suburbs (Montreuil, Bobigny etc.) are where most of my friends there live.

[mich64]

Hello Lagatta, yes I adore mustard, I admit to it. We have stayed in the 6th, 7th and 9th. I think on our next visit we will try the 11th.
The family of my husband lives in the Lorraine and when we visit there his cousins take me to grocery shop everywhere, I love it.
I was in Montreal last month, but sadly did not get the chance to visit a grocery store! A Depaneure (spelling??) was the closest I got, ha ha!

[Jazz]

Mustard snobs unite! Me too, . Have you visited the Boutique Maille at 6 Place de la Madeleine, Paris 8e?
www.maille.us/pages/home.aspx
An enjoyable visit, then I would often relax for a coffee or light supper at a the café, kitty corner to the shop. (about 30M away). Each day there is a late afternoon market, running alongside the Church which is lovely to watch and explore. If you go around lunch time, there is a cafe for lunch downstairs, within the church, at a very reasonable price. They also have free concerts on Sunday.

Mich, I enjoyed the 11th very much and am slowly working my way through the different quartiers. Lagatta is very familiar with eastern Paris...the next time I would stay in the 10th, (would love to be near the Canal Saint Martin) 19th, 20th, or the 11th, again.

[lagatta]

Dépanneur. For those not here, those are little corner stores that sell mostly beer, rather crappy wine (plonk), a few groceries including milk, and lottery tickets. At inflated prices! Pity you didn't get to marché Jean-Talon, near my house.

Kerouac's maternal family is from Lorraine and you'll find stories about his mother's village and the cities of Metz and Nancy on the site.

[Jazz]

This is what you might think of as one of the ‘anti-frugal’ restaurants in Paris. Guy Savoy offers a simple lunch, 5 courses, 5 wines for 130E, the ‘lunch special of the day’. But, this is such a great video and I love to watch it…

www.guysavoy.com/

One of the things that I love about Paris is that all cafes, bistros and restaurants post their menus outside the establishment. I think this is required by law. This makes for hours of entertainment while walking around, and helps to avoid embarrassment or shock. As I am wandering around, I take note of appealing places with my choice of price, food, and ambiance. Very soon, you compile a short list of at least 4-6 places in each quartier that look great. My mood determines where I will eat. Most establishments offer a ‘menu’, ‘formule’, 'plat du jour', or, as North Americans understand, the lunch or dinner special. This is almost always what I have, it is usually excellent value both in money and in freshness. The more limited the options offered for the special, almost guarantees delicious food. The chef is working with special good food items of the day and can concentrate on a few, well prepared dishes.

Often people say, never go to a restaurant with menus in English. Yes and no. As Paris has become more welcoming to tourists of all nationalities, we see that the restaurateurs are good businessmen. They understand (as one example) that North Americans, often do not speak more than their native English. (due to geography and less need, IMO) Most of their wait staff speak at least a modicum of English. In the high end places, often they speak impeccable English. I’ve noticed a distinct correlation between the budget level of the café or restaurant and the amount of English spoken. Also, the level of English drops or is non-existent, the more ‘out-of the –way’ the restaurant is (ie: even in the 5th) and certainly in arrondissments 10-20.

Most of the time, I eat in medium to low budget restaurants, but do indulge in occasional splurges. I prefer being in restaurants where most of the customers are native Parisiens and where the language I hear as I enjoy my meal is French…or, simply, not English. If you don’t speak French, or the bare minimum, I think it will enhance your dining experiences if you take at least a short French course before visiting and do a bit of reading about the food to be found in Paris.

This is an excellent glossary of food terms for France by Patricia Wells,
www.patriciawells.com/glossary/french_english_food_glossary.doc

Kerouac created a wonderful thread about restaurant slates, the boards outside cafes and restaurants with their specials, that will give you a clear sense of what I am talking about. His photos are throughout the arrondissements and give you the chance to study prices, and see how much of the French you understand.
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discussion&action=display&thread=1147&page=1

There are thousands of books about French food, but this is a classic, a great read and a personal favorite of mine. The Food of France, by Waverly Root.
www.amazon.com/France-Waverly-Samuel-Chamberlain-introduction/dp/B0000CK2ZG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284065225&sr=8-1

It was written in 1958. 'A celebration of a richly varied cuisine, The Food of France is also a spirited illumination of the French soul...Travelling through province, city, and remote country town.....Here are the thoughts of Rabelais's favorite truffle -flavored sausages, and the tale of how the kitchens of Versailles once cooked for one thousand aristocrats and four thousand servants in a single day. Here, too, are notes on the proper time of year to harvest snails, the Moorish influences on the confections of the Pyrenees, where the plumpest geese are raised and the age of the oldest olive tree in Provence. In short, here is France for the chef, the traveler, and the connoiseur of fine prose.'




,

[mich64]

Thank you Jazz, you have given me many links to read for the next couple of days!!
I too love the slates. In my town the restaurants now post a menu from inside out under glass/plastic for public view, but nothing beats the slates and the white chalk...
Thanks lagatta, I knew Keuroac's family was from the Lorraine. I have been reading this board for a while now, just gained the courage to join in. I am glad that I have....

[lagatta]

I can't view the Guy Savoy video on my computer, but am looking forward to going to a library and doing so. Hope they don't expel me under the standard anti-viewing-porn rules.

Chowhound has a short discussion on street food - nothing that hasn't been mentioned here in far more detail, except for this comment from a poster whose handle is "Cookingthebooks":

La Foire Aveyronnaise (Aveyron fair) is another good place to find eat-on-the-go snacks -- it's a street fair that celebrates the region of Aveyron, in all its hearty "costaud" glory. Look for pancakes called farcou and barquettes of aligot, like cheesy mashed potatoes. This year it's Oct 8-10 in Bercy (metro: St Emillion).

"Parigi" cites a few more recurring events in the same thread:

"My faves are:

- Marchés flottants on the wkend after next (17, 18, 19 September). Sud-ouest stuff, my fave.
www.marchesflottants.fr/

- "Papilles en fête", in the really funky old Grande Halle de la Villette, 11 to 14 November 2010
www.mediaexpo.fr/papilles.htm

- Marchés des Producteurs de Pays on Boulevard de Reuilly, usually on the 3rd wkend of November and 3rd wkend of May, but check".

I'm trying to find more info on Les restaurants (et cafés) associatifs, places run on a non-profit basis by associations, charities, neighbourhood groups etc. By their very nature, they tend to start up and close erratically. I know people who work at La Rôtisserie Ste-Marthe in the 10th; I'm trying to turn up others. Remember a great hole-in-the-wall (but a clean one) with food cooked by West African ladies, somewhere in northeastern Paris; think it was in the 19th.

Here are a few "cafés différents" including the café associatif La Commune d'Aligre, but really La Flèche d'Or and La Bellevilloise have become well-known institutions (and not necessarily cheap), hardly "alternative" any more: www.parisinfo.com/sortir-a-paris/paris-avec-les-parisiens/des-cafes-differents-pour-se-rencontrer/dossier/des-cafes-differents-pour-se-rencontrer_les-inclassables

[Jazz]

Mich, it’s great to see you participating. I’ve read your posts and with your fresh eye, you’ve reminded me of many great threads. And, a few I’d missed. Welcome!

Thanks, Lagatta for your excellent links. I was unaware of all of them.
Lagatta:…’ I'm trying to find more info on Les restaurants (et cafés) associatifs, places run on a non-profit basis by associations, charities, neighbourhood groups etc. By their very nature, they tend to start up and close erratically.’…
I didn’t know that these even existed and will explore them.

I suppose that those very familiar with Paris will have many thoughts on ‘cafes differents’. ‘Alternative’ is relative. La Fleche d’Or and La Bellevilloise are now well known, but if it is the first time that you experience this, then it is fresh for you.

(Have you watched the Guy Savoy video yet? Definitely food porn , but I love it. It manages to convey a feeling of the 'family' that work there, hard at work, extremely disciplined. The shot of the older man at the end who begins to laugh self consciously with his luxurious belly laugh is priceless. ;D This may well be the closest I ever come to having one of these 4 star meals.)

[mich64]

Thank you for the welcome Jazz. I am enjoying the education and conversations.
Mich

[Jazz]

Ethnic Paris…much to discuss.

Paris has a large, vibrant, rich and textured ethnic population. I don’t know, possibly 30%? These immigrants have brought with them the gift of the foods of their homelands and a taste of their cultures. They are now, forever, a part of the diversity and history of Paris. Without doubt, they offer some of the least expensive and delicious foods of Paris today. Often, I read that people only want to experience the ‘real’ Paris and French food, not ethnic food. While I love French food, I like to enjoy it ‘all’.

The Ethnic Paris Cookbook is the best single introduction to these areas of Paris that I have yet found, if you do not live in Paris.
www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Paris-Cookbook-Charlotte-Puckette/dp/0756626455/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284155317&sr=8-1

With time, I think that this book will become a collectors’ edition. It is gorgeously illustrated, contains excellent recipes, and each section begins with a detailed history of the particular ethnic area and its' foods, and a clear, richly colored map of it’s location in Paris. Within each section you will also find recommended restaurants and shops to find specific spices, condiments, oils etc. Essentially,

1. Introduction…a culinary journey.
2. Couscous in the Cafeteria…The Maghreb: Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia.
3. Bo Bun Business: Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and China.
4. Waiting for Wagiashi: Japan.
5. Africa sur Seine: Cameroon, Senegal, The west Indies, and the Caribbean.
6. The Best Mezze West of Beirut: Lebanon and Syria.
7. Glossary*Index*: with source suggestions and substitute recommendations.

I am slowly exploring all of these and have enjoyed each moment and each experience. One of my first delights was Passage Brady in the 10th,

www.geobeats.com/videoclips/france/paris/passage-brady

another glimpse,
www.hungryyogini.com/2010/03/11/passage-brady-adventures-in-indian-cuisine/

I remember the wonderful, delicate fragrances, the bustling vitality of the Passage Brady and, my delicious meal of 10E. There is also a restaurant with an exceptional ‘formule’ of 5E, which Kerouac has eaten and said is good. Just outside of Passage Brady and down the street is Derya, a Turkish restaurant. One night I had dinner with a friend here. mmm...Not ‘strictly budget’, but excellent value for the quality of food and ambience. Superbe! The whole area fascinates me, rue du Faubourg Saint Denis and Boulevard de Strasbourg and I have spent hours there.

The largest of the Paris Chinatowns is in the 13th arrondissement. Another great way to spend the day and to eat inexpensively. I visited and ate there often, you can easily have a lovely meal for 4-10E….a delicious shrimp wonton soup etc. If you go, don’t miss a visit to Tang Freres. One beautiful restaurant is La Lune, 36 avenue de Choisy, Paris 13e. My dinner here with a friend was excellent and the owner was very welcoming.

[lagatta]

There is a prejudice among some travellers about eating "non-French" food in Paris - and yet food from different parts of the world is very much French, and the way Chinese and Southeast Asian foods have been adapted to suit the French palate is very different than how they would evolve in much of North America, Britain or Brazil, just for example.

In Québec we're getting many French-speaking immigrants from the former colonies mentioned in that wonderful book, so there are restaurants from most of the ethnicities mentioned in it here in Montréal. I can easily walk to good Vietnamese, Maghrebi and Lebanese/Syrian restaurants.

[Deleted]

Yes, I have seen trip reports on various sites where people say that they broke down and went to a pizzeria as though it were a gigantic faux-pas and as much a flag of defeat as going to McDonald's. I wish that people would just relax and not worry about. If they want to eat like the French, they will often eat in Italian restaurants and even go to McDonald's from time to time. The (modern) French certainly do no want French food at every meal.

Eating in Chinese/Asian restaurants all over the world, I have certainly found that "Chinese" food is adapted to local tastes everywhere, and that's something that makes it interesting. (And Italian, French and even American food are adapted to local tastes everywhere as well, and that's how it should be. However, it is nice when you have the option of choosing between adapted and unadapted dishes.)

[lagatta]

I don't eat at McDonald's here, so I don't see why I'd do so in France. It might be different if I were a road traveller in my work, of course. There are benefits to a standardised and relatively hygenic, if dull, food option and they do have foods other than burgers now.

Those little traiteurs vietnamiens found everywhere in Paris and other major French cities are a standard cheap food option for me. Some are much better than others though. Evidently one of the best is near la mairie du 18e.

Edited to add - Oh drat, it has closed. www.restoaparis.com/fiche-restaurant-paris/saveurs-dasie-traiteur.html But there must be others of quality.

A friend in Calcutta wrote to me about he and his wife preparing Indian-Chinese and Indian-Italian, as well as dishes from other South Asian regions. I've had Chinese food in Perugia - it was good, but at least as Italian as Chinese.

[Deleted]

That's the whole point - some people are regular McDonald's customers and others are not. There is food for everybody in Paris, no matter what their style, although I admit that I would have trouble directing them somewhere if they are seriously missing Tim Horton's.

While the Vietnamese delis have some excellent options (usually), just like anywhere else, if people are not attracted to that sort of food, they are not going to seek it out in Paris. But I am confident that no matter how picky somebody is, they can find something that will please them in Paris, whether or not they live off a diet of crèpes, panini, hamburgers, pizzas, kebabs or vegan soup.

[lagatta]

The only time I'd ever eat at a Tim Horton's (Canadian doughnut and coffee chain, branching out to other fast-food options) is if I'm stuck at a highway stop somewhere. Pretty much always have their "chili" (that is how their site spells it).

Well, of course you have to like (watered-down) Southeast Asian food to like Vietnamese "traiteurs" (takeaways, delis - traiteur literally means "caterer" but these aren't places that typically do weddings and such). But a lot of people do, and they are a cheap, convenient option.

[mich64]

I enjoy varying my food selections when travelling and finding different foods whenever possible at home so I am certainly going to take advantage when travelling.

It is all about embracing the differences whether it be fashion, food, architecture or culture. I can often be found in the aisles of the grocery store reading the labels of just about everything!

We have eaten at a McDonald's in Switzerland because we wanted the experience of having a beer with a Big Mac! And yes, we did enjoy it.

Tim Horton's is indeed a Canadian addictive habit. We too use it when on the road travelling, there are always those rumours of "something" added to the coffee to keep people coming back. Thankfully, I drink tea, preventing me from adding to my bad habits.

[Jazz]

I have rarely eaten at Macdonald’s, Tim Hortons, Wendy’s etc. in Toronto and have NO desire to eat in these places when in Paris. But, I agree that people should relax and eat what they enjoy and is good for their budgets…if this is Macdonald’s in Paris, so be it. However, there is so much more. The ethnic possibilities are as inexpensive and offer much greater value, as do many simple local cafes and restaurants. Some of the chain restaurants are very good….Leon’s leaps to mind, (love it!)
www.leon-de-bruxelles.fr/

Wherever I have stayed to date, there always seems to be many modest alternatives. The Asian traiteurs can be great, especially late at night. Essentially, you explore and buy what you enjoy.

One of my personal favorite books on the food and markets of Paris is The Belly of Paris (Le ventre de Paris) by Emile Zola.
www.amazon.ca/Belly-Paris-Emile-Zola/dp/0199555842/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284323386&sr=8-1

A brief overview of his work,
www.kirjasto.sci.fi/ezola.htm

It is one of the 20 books of his Rougon-Macquart series, a classic of French literature, and I have read most of them. They were written from the mid to late 1800s in Paris. 'Le Ventre de Paris' is an exceptional vision of Les Halles, written when the market was young. You can read an excerpt here,
www.culinate.com/books/book_excerpts/the_belly_of_paris

My favorites in his series are Le Ventre de Paris, (The Belly of Paris), L'Oeuvre ( The Masterpiece), (the story of an artist in Paris at this time)..it is regarded as the true life story of the friendship between Zola and Cezanne, the publication of the book ended their friendship. I was most fascinated by L'Assommoir, (The Drunkard). L’Assommoir is a remarkable depiction of alcoholism, written in 1877, and could easily be on the Alcoholics Anonymous reading list today. It takes place within La Goutte d’Or.
www.parisvoice.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=159&Itemid=27
You can easily find many of the streets, the lavoir etc. mentioned in the novel.

Au Bonheur des Dames, (The Ladies' Paradise) is lighter, but fascinating. It recounts the spectacular development of the modern department store in late nineteenth century Paris, great for shoppers and those interested in the Passages of Paris. Zola is also famous for his remarkable letter to the newspapers, 'J'Accuse'' re: the case of Alfred Dreyfus.

[lagatta]

mich64, there is a thread on supermarkets on one of the food boards, and it discusses the kind of finds you mention. It is fascinating to see not only the different foods and beverages, but also how much space is devoted to different categories. For example, in Italian supermarkets, I still see a much smaller array of chips/crisps and similar salty snacks than in any other wealthy country I've visited. And it should come as no surprise that there are many, and very good, cookies in the Netherlands. After all, "cookie" is a Dutch loanword (adopted in New York State).

I don't often patronize Tim's because I do very few road trips - I don't drive, and few of my friends have cars except those who really need them for their work (and they are VERY busy). We live very close to three métro stations. If I should have the misfortune of taking the bus to Toronto (horrible, that - once not too long ago I had to go there and there were no places left on the VIA train) there is a Tim Horton's at the midway point at Kingston Ontario. There coffee isn't bad for bleh North-American type coffee (I drink espresso at home and live in an old Italian district) but I don't love it. The problem with tea is having to drink it out of a styrofoam or paper cup. Guess I'm a tea snob too - I'm drinking some tea right now, out of a very nice bone china cup I picked up at a church bazaar. And yes, I make it in a pot.

[bixaorellana]

Fascinating discussion, but one that's veering away from the important and useful subject of the thread. Accordingly, this has been forked into a new thread, Foreign foreign food in foreign cities:
anyportinastorm.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=discussion&thread=4453&page=1#90022

[mich64]

My apologies Bix, did not mean to distract the topic, I have enjoyed going through the links
P.S. lagatta, I am drinking my steeped tea from my Brown Betty pot.