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Post by lola on Oct 12, 2010 14:07:38 GMT
www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/world/europe/13france.html?_r=1&hpFirst I'll admit the selfish parts. I probably find the photo of gleefully protesting high school students more annoying because: 1. the strike promises to cancel my daughter's trip to the sea. 2. I'll probably have to keep plugging away at my job approximately forever. I'm usually ready to jump on anti-Sarkozy sentiment, but this seems to be a straightforward math problem where there are X retirees and Y amt of money to go around. I'm also usually ready to soak the rich, but in this case the change seems inevitable. I'm prepared for US to raise minimum retirement age to 70 before I ever hit that age.
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Post by bjd on Oct 12, 2010 16:24:39 GMT
My son, who is 26, claims the high school kids are demonstrating because it's a way of having a day off school.
I don't know how many people are striking. Our postman was working and told me the post office was open. I saw buses running. And this afternoon at the supermarket, I saw a few parents with kids because obviously their teachers were on strike.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 17:13:30 GMT
The Eiffel Tower closed before 1 pm when the employees decided to go on strike. Basically today's strike was more successful than the previous ones, with variations: more rail workers on strike but fewer subway workers on strike.
The government is extremely worried about the participation of university and high school students, because it is the one group over which they have absolutely no control -- and every single contested measure which has involved the students has always caused the government to back down in the end.
Basically, everybody agrees that there must be retirement reform, but the strikes are due to the fact that the government steamrollered the changes rather than negotiating with the 'social partners'. The Sarkozy government always presents its measures with a statement along the lines of "we have already made our irrevocable decision, but we are happy to listen to you now. We won't change anything, though."
I am certainly not an expert on this matter, but there are indeed numerous issues that the government has ignored, and the strikes are to try to get the government to listen. Sarkozy's approval rating is 31% and dropping.
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Post by bjd on Oct 12, 2010 18:31:30 GMT
But since the law has been passed both in the National Assembly and the Senate, do you think they will change anything? Sarkozy and the UMP just wanted to pass the reform. Indeed everybody said one was necessary, but nobody wants to be the one to give up any privileges.
What annoys me is that the "social partners" usually means the trade unions. But, only 8% of French workers are unionized, and those people are almost all civil servants. I don't see that they speak for anybody but themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 19:08:08 GMT
It's true that only 8% of French workers belong to a trade union (the lowest percentage of any industrialized country in the world). And that indicates that many of the strikers are not unionized at all, as was shown on the France 2 evening news tonight. It was also pointed out that large numbers of private sector workers were on strike today, such as the refineries and the ports. (Not to mention the privately operated Eiffel Tower going on strike and closing today.)
Interestingly enough, I joined a union just one week ago and was elected union delegate in my company with 96% of the vote just a couple of days later. And I was not on strike today, even though I received an email with the rallying point and the time. Many union members in France join for other reasons and never go on strike. It is highly unlikely that I will every go on strike, but I plan to use the union for other company needs.
One of the major issues at the moment continues to be the huge profits of the banking sector (which creates absolutely nothing) and the billions of euros still being distributed to the traders as bonuses. It did not help either yesterday when it was announced that France is #3 in the world in the number of millionaires, far ahead of any other European country, even though the government keeps whining about the rich people fleeing the country because we are being mean to them. They sure got that one wrong. Even Sarkozy was obliged to announce today that the law will be changed to protect the rich less next year, even though all of his reign until now was based on protecting them.
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 25, 2010 14:23:28 GMT
Thanks for the insights above into the background of some of the issues.
It's been a couple of weeks since the last reply in this thread. I'm following the strike stories online, but it would be great to hear reports from those of you in France.
Askar, Bjd, Kerouac and others ........ you're all in different parts of the country. How are you all being affected, please?
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Post by bjd on Oct 25, 2010 14:59:19 GMT
Today the gas station closest to my house is closed for lack of gasoline. I understand some buses don't run in the mornings at rush hour. I work at home so have not been affected. Everyone I know has been going to work and is not striking. I noticed some empty supermarket shelves last week, but don't know whether it's panic buying or delivery problems.
A friend told me she was in the subway last Thursday when some high school kids got on, starting smashing eggs on the floor and breaking signs in the carriage, screaming and yelling and preventing people from getting on or off. Some passengers finally managed to push the emergency button and the train was finally immobilized at a station and everyone told to get off. Traffic stopped on the whole line for about 15minutes. A few security guards came, but didn't really do anything. When the people waiting on the platform finally got into a new train, the kids got in again. When my friend got off downtown, she said most of the kids did too and were welcomed by a guy in a vest marked CGT (one of the trade unions). One of the girls offered to give her eggs to my friend! Lots of police downtown too apparently.
She also told me there was a garbage strike in downtown Toulouse, although not as spectacular as that in Marseille. I don't know whether things are continuing because the radio station with news only gives occasional news -- some of them are on strike too. Maybe things will calm down now that school holidays have started? There is supposed to be another "day of action" tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 16:47:56 GMT
Actually, I think the next strike day is Thursday. It is hard to say where this is going.
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Post by bjd on Oct 25, 2010 17:03:45 GMT
Whenever. Another on November 6 too, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 17:16:45 GMT
November 6th is a Saturday -- a demonstration day, not a strike day.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 11:50:22 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 27, 2010 12:54:31 GMT
This is truly interesting. Besides the kids, are there other ad hoc demonstrations? Do the strikers get more support than the demonstrators, or does it sort of run together? I admit to a certain disgruntlement with the high school students, as there's rather too much demonstrating by students here. It's a pain in the neck when you're stopped on your way to work (as a non-scab) by a bunch of laughing brats young people who've never worked and who are stopping traffic to protest not getting a place in the university. This you find out later as there are no placards to announce it. But I'm also ambivalent, as often young people organize to highlight grave problems that affect everyone. But since the law has been passed both in the National Assembly and the Senate, do you think they will change anything? Sarkozy and the UMP just wanted to pass the reform. Indeed everybody said one was necessary, but nobody wants to be the one to give up any privileges. Is there any consensus among people you all know about what kinds of reforms they would have preferred?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 13:03:58 GMT
The main thing that people have been saying is that one size does not fit all: people who started working at age 16 should be able to retire earlier, as should people doing difficult jobs. When people started mentioning things like that, the government said "don't worry -- we'll take care of all of those little details!" -- except they didn't.
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Post by myrt on Nov 11, 2010 18:49:19 GMT
The students are revolting here! Whoo hoo! About time too..........violent scenes in London yesterday restored my faith somewhat - not that I am condoning violence as such but it's soooo nice to see people caring about something - enough to make a noise anyway!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 18:54:51 GMT
Yes, I was amazed to see those scenes of London on the news! I was also horrified to read articles about the university fees and the payment system.
Meanwhile, the retirement law in France has been fully passed and validated by the constitutional council. Implementation is nearly immediate.
However, a new day of protest has been set for the end of the month.
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Post by myrt on Nov 11, 2010 20:56:36 GMT
Will it do any good if it's already a done deal? The fees are just scandalous.......only the stinking rich are entitled to a decent education now - some things just never change. I think there will be many days of protests to come.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 21:16:59 GMT
Will it do any good if it's already a done deal? It can motivate the next government to amend some of the mistakes... and it can prevent the current government from getting any more bright ideas.
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Post by hwinpp on Nov 12, 2010 4:13:09 GMT
Schoolchildren revolting? They need the cane, that's all. Please! Next the kindergardeners?
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Post by tod2 on Nov 24, 2010 14:24:27 GMT
Those days have long gone I'm afraid hwinpp My son only got paddywacks once at junior school - they had to line up outside the headmaster office so were forewarned and had time to stuff some newspaper into their underpants..... He never really belted them hard, just the thought of what was to come had them shivering in their boots! There's an add running on telly at the moment revealing the fact that if you miss-behaved you were likely to get a clout across the ear-hole by the local Bobby!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 15:37:54 GMT
Aren't the British students demonstrating again today?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 16:07:46 GMT
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Post by bjd on Nov 24, 2010 16:15:16 GMT
If, as according to the article, fees go up to £9000, they are still much lower than in the States, though obviously higher than in many European countries. University fees are still quite low in France, but business schools cost close to 9000€ for tuition. And there are no scholarships, only bursaries for students whose parents don't have much money. And a much worse system of student loans.
What are university fees like in Canada, Deyana? Students don't get free education there, I know. I paid to go to university, and although compared to now it wasn't that much, at the time it was a huge amount for me. I heard one girl in England interviewed and she said it wasn't fair to raise fees since all the politicians who are raising the fees didn't have to pay any. But things have changed, in England as elsewhere.
I think what is more important is the fact that they want to cut spending on lots of university programs, other than sciences.
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Post by lola on Nov 24, 2010 16:23:56 GMT
The main thing that people have been saying is that one size does not fit all: people who started working at age 16 should be able to retire earlier, as should people doing difficult jobs. When people started mentioning things like that, the government said "don't worry -- we'll take care of all of those little details!" -- except they didn't. People with backbreaking jobs in the US don't get any more consideration than those whose most strenuous task is turning on the computer and looking thoughtful. Unfortunately it's the latter types who get to make the rules. In the US we are of course used to private colleges and universities costing $50K/year including living expenses and books. Our (proudly low-tax) state U is $20K now. Our girls got good scholarships, and can expect to graduate with "only" ~$16K debt each after what we're paying now. One Guardian article raises the question of how valuable the degrees can be when almost everyone must have one. So many young people are graduating with their large debts and few jobs that need their high priced skills.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 16:34:45 GMT
Yes, looks like they will be cutting many subjects out completely in the UK.
bjd, The fees here in Canada are not too bad in comparison to what is being proposed in the UK. The fees have gone up here since last year, but not by much. I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I think they are in the $7,000 range per year. (which is 4,389 pounds or 5,186 Euros). I can check with my son to see exactly how much he pays each term. He's doing a double major in Law and Physiology. He lives away from home, on campus, and it all adds up. The living expenses is where the real money comes into play.
Here in NB, if after graduation, the student stays and work in the province they will get back $10,000 over 4 years, (in tax returns). I beleive in Manitoba the amount they get back is $20,000 over 4 years. Not bad really.
Foreign students who come to Canada to study pay about twice the amount as the local students.
Lola, I've just read your post above. Yes the US charges a lot more for student fees. Looks like Canada is doing okay in comparison to many other places.
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Post by bjd on Nov 24, 2010 17:25:15 GMT
So many young people are graduating with their large debts and few jobs that need their high priced skills.
Well, another problem is that when most students get out of university, they don't really having any skills for the working world. So they have debts to repay, high expectations and nothing that they can do except learn on the job, if they are lucky enough to find something. With any luck, their university education taught them how to learn quickly and think for themselves, but most arts and even science students don't have applicable "skills".
In France, more and more, students are expected to do internships to get some experience in the working world. These are often not paid at all, or else very badly. The idea was that the employer would see how hard they worked and would hire them, but as it turns out, that happens rarely (less than 10% was what I read a while back). Many employers take advantage and just keep taking new interns. The bother of training them is compensated by the lack of salary.
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Post by lola on Nov 24, 2010 17:27:48 GMT
Intern situation similar here, unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 17:42:10 GMT
The Intern thing seems really unfair. Much like the so-called 'work experience' they had some years back in the UK.
I'm not sure how it is in other places, but I've found that many, if not most students here work part-time while attending university, in order to supplement their loans. My son for instance has been working part-time since High school grade 11. And will be working all full time through the Christmas season this year.
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Post by hwinpp on Nov 25, 2010 7:42:30 GMT
So Germany is still the cheapest place to study in Europe? All taken in? Fees, consumer prices, accommodation?
I'm quite pleased by that ;D
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Post by lagatta on Nov 25, 2010 16:53:24 GMT
The internships thing can be quite cruel, for example in the media, as it really limits the career path to young people who can afford to do unpaid work.
When I was at university, fees here were much lower than in the so-called "Rest of Canada". They have increased considerably, but are still cheaper than anywhere else in North America north of the Rio Grande/Bravo (bixa, I'm not very familiar with tuition fees in Mexico, relevant to income).
I believe CÉGEP level (Professional/Vocational and General Education College) education is still tuition fee-free, at least for full-time students. Those are kind of a cross between Junior or Technical colleges and lycée, replacing the old Church-run Collèges classiques, which only an élite and a few brilliant students from poorer families attended. More than a few university graduates return to take CÉGEP technical courses more specific to employment market needs. The CÉGEPs ensure a general public education level by requiring technical students as well to take general knowledge courses such as French and English (their own language and the opposite second language, some science, philosophy/humanities etc). Before the so-called Quiet Revolution around 1960, Québec had woefully low education levels.
hw (or nikita) how much do German students pay (whether at University or in technical programmes)? Both in terms of fees and general living.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 21:13:07 GMT
I don't know university tuition in Germany, but in France in 2010 it is 174€ (up from 171€ last year) for a standard degree and 237€ for a masters degree. Fees for a doctorate are 359€ (up from 350€). Payment can be split into three payments. Wouldn't it be wonderful if those were the only fees to go to university?
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