|
Post by Don Cuevas on Oct 26, 2010 9:15:58 GMT
Several times during my work as a baker, I heard co-workers refer to thawing something frozen as "unthawing".
Now my wife has found someone in a novel speaking of "unloosening some levers".
What is behind this peculiar English usage? Is it for emphasis, such as "an ink pen", or is it a result of a deficient education?
(We have recently heard friends use "unthaw".)
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 26, 2010 9:35:18 GMT
So to 'unloosen' something you actually tighten it then?
From a layman's point of view it sounds wrong when these types of words are used. But are they incorrect? Who knows. I am aware that a negative can be used for emphasis and that in the German language double negatives seem to be used more often to express a positive than just using the positive word, or so it appears to me anyway.
But I first started noticing what you are on about in the early 70's when motorbikes started flooding the market from Japan. Usually somewhere in the instruction book it mentioned where you have to dismantle something. However, they always used the word 'disassemble' instead. That is a correct word but used in that context only from the beginning of the 20th century, whereas dismantle stems from the late 16th century - or so Google says, so it must be right. It annoyed me then and annoys me now when I see the word disassemble when I think dismantle is good enough.
|
|
|
Post by Don Cuevas on Oct 26, 2010 11:33:21 GMT
Mark, the strange thing about this usage is that "unthaw" means to thaw, and I suppose "unloosen" is to loosen. That's what has me puzzled. However, "unfasten" still means to take off or undo.
Multiple negatives are permitted in Spanish as well. No hay nadie que nunca quiere asistir. Literally; There is no one who never (really means "ever") wants to attend. I expect to be hearing from Bixa on this.
No tengo ninguna idea. Literally; I haven't not one idea.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 26, 2010 12:06:43 GMT
Then it's a stupid idea and anyone who speaks like that should be taken out into the desert and shot.
|
|
|
Post by Don Cuevas on Oct 26, 2010 18:11:04 GMT
Mark, at the time when I was working (I'm now "unworking".), the desert was far away, but I would have agreed with you. On reflection, I would have had to do most all of the work in the bakery assigned to others. It was a peculiar thing, but hardly the worst aspect of that environment.
My reaction was more bemusement. Contrast that to the shock and irritation I felt the first time I heard co-workers repeatedly going, " I go, she goes, he goes" meaning "says" or "said" I still haven't gotten over that. It's been, oh, maybe 25 years.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 26, 2010 19:00:09 GMT
I'm sure there must have been studies done to determine how long it takes before a group of people all use the same language variations. Whenever it was, maybe you got out just in time!
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 26, 2010 23:42:12 GMT
I expect to be hearing from Bixa on this. You nailed it, DonC, when you said ... never (really means "ever") ..., which of course it does in that context. It was phrases such as "mejor que nunca" which alerted me to the fact that nadie, nunca, ninguna all have two separate and opposite meanings, depending on the sentence. Thus, "No tengo ninguna idea" is literally "I don't have even one idea", rather than being a double negative. But back to "unthaw" ~~ all I can say is, ¡que barbaridad! It has got to be a wrong and ignorant usage? How could it be otherwise. And you say now you've heard others using it?! Stop the madness! This crap is always so pervasive, causing the more linguistically precise of us much pain. You may have heard me mention how the now universal misuse of "thankfully" causes me to suck it my breath so violently that I freeze my teeth. "Thankfully, no one was hurt." Thankfully is an adverb for goodness sakes. What the hell is it modifying in that sentence? I'm sure this is an evil outgrowth of the horrible and common misuse of "hopefully". Are you going to the circus? "Hopefully!" Mark, I didn't know that about dismantle. Now I feel ignernt.
|
|
|
Post by imec on Oct 27, 2010 2:01:37 GMT
I live in a part of the world where everything outside freezes and thaws every year, yet I continually hear people using that stupid term. I suspect that Webster and other producers of inferior dictionaries will eventually find it acceptable in the way that they have with "debone". Idiots.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 27, 2010 5:52:41 GMT
Hopefully this wont become too pervasive and thankfully we are here to object to it.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 27, 2010 6:13:26 GMT
Can you hear my high-pitched screaming from where you are, Mark?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2010 6:32:03 GMT
"Defreeze" would have made more sense, even if it makes me cringe as well.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 27, 2010 6:51:07 GMT
Certainly bixa, and I thought the cats outside were fighting.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 27, 2010 13:15:34 GMT
My sister refers to certain speaking in upset tones as "using that voice only dogs can hear".
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 28, 2010 23:46:51 GMT
"Defreeze" sounds like a calque of French. "Dethaw" makes no sense whatsoever. Deboning makes me want to scream.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 29, 2010 1:52:43 GMT
Yeah, it hurts like hell, doesn't it?! ;D
What is a calque please, LaGatta?
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 29, 2010 2:39:43 GMT
a calque is a slavish copy, such as a tracing; in Italian and Spanish, the word is "calco". The linguistic meaning, according to my Clave Spanish dico is: En lingüistica, adaptación de una palabra o una expresión extranjeras a una lengua, traduciendo su significado completo o el de cada uno de los elementos que las forman: " 'Balconvolea' es un calco de la palabra inglesa 'volleyball' ". Here is the definition of calque in English-language Wikipedia. In English it is mainly a linguistic term: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 29, 2010 2:48:07 GMT
Aaaa, como "fibravidrio", por ejemplo.
|
|
|
Post by Kimby on Oct 29, 2010 3:23:18 GMT
I personally dislike "deplane". I would rather the stewardess flight attendant said "disembark", even if no boat is involved.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Oct 29, 2010 4:47:45 GMT
"Deplane" sounds as though the passengers are being thrown out, mid-flight.
|
|
|
Post by Kimby on Oct 29, 2010 5:03:57 GMT
(I also don't like it when they say "we'll be on the ground soon". I'd much rather they say "we'll be landing soon". A plane that is crashing will be "on the ground soon", won't it?)
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 29, 2010 7:45:26 GMT
Far be it for me to offer myself up as an expert on the English language but I'd just like to point something out as regards 'debone'. You are objecting to the word as it should just be 'bone', yes? And the words therefore have the same meaning. But they don't quite.
To bone something doesn't always mean to remove the bones. It can also mean to put bones in - as with boned corsets, and is applicable to anything that is a flexible structure but has 'stays' or sections put in to make it more rigid. Also to put bone meal into feed or fertilizer. Hence, to differentiate between that and the removal of bones, then to debone is perfectly acceptable to me.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 29, 2010 7:48:06 GMT
On a further note on words using the prefix 'de', one of my favourite words is 'defenestration'. But shouldn't it just be without the de as you cannot 'fenestrate'?
|
|
|
Post by imec on Oct 29, 2010 12:37:43 GMT
Far be it for me to offer myself up as an expert on the English language but I'd just like to point something out as regards 'debone'. You are objecting to the word as it should just be 'bone', yes? And the words therefore have the same meaning. But they don't quite. To bone something doesn't always mean to remove the bones. It can also mean to put bones in - as with boned corsets, and is applicable to anything that is a flexible structure but has 'stays' or sections put in to make it more rigid. Also to put bone meal into feed or fertilizer. Hence, to differentiate between that and the removal of bones, then to debone is perfectly acceptable to me. Disagree. The corset may indeed be of the boned variety - but it has become so by having bones inserted, not by being boned. Similarly the fertilizer may have had bone added but it has not been boned.
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 29, 2010 12:51:31 GMT
So you're saying to 'bone' a corset means to take the stays out? So what do you say you are doing when you put them in? I am aware that the internet is fallible but on a quick look I find - dictionary.reference.com/browse/boneWhere it says what I say a couple of times under verbs on that page. I don't mind being wrong, but this seems to support me, depending on how correct that is anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 12:53:52 GMT
Even when the word was taught in school, they told us that "reiterate" was a stupid word since "iterate" already means "to repeat".
|
|
|
Post by imec on Oct 29, 2010 13:01:43 GMT
but this seems to support me In the same way that a cheap pair of hiking boots would seem to support your feet. Of course, there are innumerable sources of support to be found for any bastardization of the English language you can come up with. Even Webster provides some degree of support for "debone" - Oxford however, does not (presumably as no citations for its use are available). Bone as a verb = remove bones, just as (when used as a verb): skin = remove skin shell = remove shell fillet = remove the fillets
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 29, 2010 14:09:37 GMT
Even when the word was taught in school, they told us that " reiterate" was a stupid word since " iterate" already means " to repeat". But what if you repeat it twice?
|
|
|
Post by onlymark on Oct 29, 2010 14:20:27 GMT
So it's 2:1 to me so far? I've got the link I posted and Websters, you've got the Oxford? However, you have to subscribe to use the OED, so that probably trumps mine then.
Modified - found another one, Collins. If the Oxford doesn't mention it, does that mean it can't be right because they've omitted to? i.e. a negative entry means the word/verb/definition doesn't exist?
And anyway, what should I say I'm doing every morning when I'm putting the stays in my corset? I can't say I'm boning it then?
|
|
|
Post by imec on Oct 29, 2010 14:45:37 GMT
You may very well be boning every morning (in which case I congratulate you sir) - whether or not you do it in your corset, however, is probably best kept private.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Oct 29, 2010 15:28:05 GMT
Heh heh. Certainly hope only is still boning every morning, sign of health and vigour. Men in corsets remind me too much of Russell Williams these days, though he will soon fade into deserved oblivion. You can find a lot of OED content at wordreference.com and a lot of Collins content at reverso.net Indeed deplane reminded me of defenestrate. Of course you can fenestrate: that would mean to install windows. Fenestrated means windowed and is also a term in the life sciences, in human and veterinary medicine and in botany, to describe "window-like" structures. Glass windowpanes were a very important improvement in the buildings people lived and worked in, especially in cold countries with low winter light. I spontaneously thought of the 1948 murder of Jan Masaryk (disguised as a suicide, a common motive for defenestration) but the wiki article reminds us that the term first appeared centuries earlier, also in Prague! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration
|
|