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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 31, 2011 3:38:35 GMT
Interesting that you should say that, Mich. I would certainly think the same thing. But look at this news story from just a couple of hours ago: As chaos reigns, foreigners advised to leave Egypt ... The impact on the Red Sea resorts, favored by Europeans, was still negligible. Some travel companies said those destinations remained unaffected, even though some governments, such as Poland, expanded their travel advisories to include those areas.
For some prospective visitors, it wasn't worth the risk.
Tulin Sezer, a 39-year-old math teacher from Berlin, said she and her two friends had just decided to cancel their trip to the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.
"It just doesn't feel right to go on vacation in Egypt if the people who live there are not happy," Sezer said. "If people are dying, it is weird to go there as a tourist."Click the headline to read the full story. I would feel the same as the woman from Berlin, but apparently people who enjoy the Red Sea resorts don't agree.
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Post by bjd on Jan 31, 2011 8:04:58 GMT
I saw a clip on Euronews last night -- a group of Polish tourists going to Egypt. When asked why they hadn't cancelled, they said the travel agency refused to reimburse cancelled trips.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 31, 2011 10:21:22 GMT
I am now dealing with claims for cancelled trips to Luxor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 10:57:04 GMT
There will be plenty of those....
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 31, 2011 13:21:15 GMT
Indeed........
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 14:01:17 GMT
About the only tourists not worried are the ones in Sharm el Sheikh -- as long as there are no problems at the airport. And of course there are the tourists in Tabah, who can take a taxi to the Israeli border in 10 minutes if necessary.
Tomorrow should be a moment of truth with the "million man march."
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Post by tod2 on Jan 31, 2011 15:10:17 GMT
Where are you Mark? I see your last post was 27th Jan at 8.44pm Everytime I watch TV I am thinking of you and family. Especially with no law & order and the looting. If it were happening here in Africa I would be absolutely scared shitless! I hope you are well and safe.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 31, 2011 15:40:55 GMT
Isn't that shiiteless?
Actually I think Mark said he was going away to the Red Sea?
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Post by tod2 on Jan 31, 2011 16:57:20 GMT
OK - Thanks Mick. Yeah , shiitless is probably right!
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 31, 2011 17:21:07 GMT
*SNORK!* ;D (took me a moment ~ )
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Post by mich64 on Jan 31, 2011 18:13:58 GMT
Bix, I too faced the question of cancelling our planned trip departing after Sept. 11. We were flying to Paris to be picked up by family from the Lorraine and the morning we were to leave we were picking up my in-law's from their apartment and my mother-in-law was in tears. She was so scared but we all decided to continue with our plans.
It was a difficult decision but when we arrived the family was so supportive and because we were not doing the tourist sights and spent most of our time at the homes of our family up in the Lorraine region we did not feel unsafe until the last full day which we spent in Paris. The monuments and tourist areas were receiving bomb threats and there were bus loads of Police with machine guns blaring through the streets. That upset us as we were to fly out the next day. It was very difficult stepping onto the plane that day back. Mich
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 18:25:21 GMT
We're not even sure that Mark left Rehab. If things were already deteriorating by departure time, I can imagine that plans may have been revised. Then again he may have taken the family to the hotel and then returned to protect the homestead.
We'll find out by the end of the week, I reckon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2011 20:54:09 GMT
The Egyptian army has said it would not use force against citizens staging protests to force President Hosni Mubarak to step down
In a statement on Monday it said "freedom of expression" was guaranteed to all citizens using peaceful means.
It was the first such explicit confirmation by the army that it would not fire at demonstrators who have taken to the streets of Egypt and comes a day before before Tuesday's "march of millions" to mark the seventh day of the protests as anti-government sentiment reaches fever pitch. "The presence of the army in the streets is for your sake and to ensure your safety and wellbeing. The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," the army statement said.
"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."
(from Al Jazeera)
Frankly, it looks like the army is preparing to jettison Mubarak if tomorrow's demonstration is a success.
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Post by Jazz on Jan 31, 2011 22:25:52 GMT
We haven’t heard from Mark since Jan. 27th, #48….an intense 4 days, given the speed and complexity of what is going on. I would Absolutely Trust Mark’s ability to be well, but he has his family to consider and this is far more complicated. I think his wife is now in Jordan?, but the children are with him in Egypt. At least he had already made plans to move to Jordan…most Egytians must stay and deal with whatever is coming. Be safe, Mark.
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Post by Jazz on Jan 31, 2011 23:03:52 GMT
I’m not that knowledgeable about Egypt, but have been following the coverage on BBC, CBC, CNN and Al Jezeera. Fascinating from the outside, but frightening if you live there. A state of total insecurity. Lineups for bread, the police non-functioning, banks closed, cash rushing out of the country, no gas, stock markets down, oil prices up, non-nationals getting out of the country…
The position of the army announced today (as noted by Kerouac) is significent. The Egyptian army is the 10th largest in the world, and unlike in many countries (ie: Canada), the army's stance is crucial. It was good to see that the army in the last week was not hostile to the protesters and has issued this statement.
It was fascinating to see how local people formed their own neighborhood militias to protect themselves. And, seeing that it was possible to live without a corrupt police force.
It’s difficult to understand what is really going on, giving the curtailment of Al Jazeera, many social networks, the internet, but, people seem to be creating ways to speak to the world and to each other within their country. Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Sudan…the whole movement is overwhelming and complex. The state of affairs is vital to the whole world on many levels. ie: the North American dependence on oil and Egypt’s control of the Suez canal.
The dramatic announcement by the Army that the people have legimate demands is now shifting developments to dialogue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 0:08:33 GMT
There is a way to contact Mark. But I'll leave it up to Kerouac... I'm sure we'll hear from him soon.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 1, 2011 1:50:28 GMT
"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."
That statement sounds as sincere as the address from Moubarak sounded false, out of touch, and self-serving.
God, I would have KILLED to have been in Cairo today! This is intensely stirring.
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Post by bjd on Feb 1, 2011 8:11:28 GMT
In today's paper, it said that there is rising pressure from the wealthy, those living in gated communities, to keep Mubarak because of fear of troubles and economic chaos. State television has been showing repeated pictures of looting and fighting, trying to scare people from supporting the demonstrators.
The other day on Al Jazeera or France24, they showed 2 screens side by side: the crowds in Tahrir Square and the state TV showing empty streets.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 14:34:58 GMT
Hmmm... it is clearly more difficult to figure how to count demonstrators in countries where demonstrations rarely occur. Every website is giving different sorts of estimations, but at least everybody agrees on "big."
I see that King Abdullah of Jordan has dissolved his government. He probably is trying to get a jump on his demonstrators before they get out of hand.
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Post by fumobici on Feb 1, 2011 15:14:18 GMT
Given the long history of endless, gushing self righteous US rhetoric about the sanctity of freedom and democracy, to not be seen- exposed- as complete and utter hypocrites with no real underlying principles beyond naked cynical self-interest requires walking our talk. If we only espouse democratic principles when we feel the results will suit us, we are hardly better than those we so lustily criticize.
In any country ruled by dictators we support where the people make it clear they want change we must either promptly and unambiguously back the will of those people over those dictators even- especially- when the outcome may not be in our clear self interest or once and for all retire our preaching democracy and freedom as values we cherish. Either outcome would be better in the long term than continued cynical unprincipled hypocrisy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 15:20:16 GMT
Once bitten, twice shy -- the United States has never forgotten how the act of abandoning the Shah of Iran blew up in its face. But of course, the country has poor short term memory, because it could have learned after doing all the wrong things in Cuba that there were other ways to talk to a new regime rather than turning them into instant mortal enemies. Better luck next time?
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Post by bjd on Feb 1, 2011 15:46:49 GMT
It's not an Arab country but dictatorial anyway -- the president of Kazakhstan has called for early elections, even though the next ones were supposed to be only in 2012.
It's nice to see all these guys begin to worry. Now, if it would only happen in some African countries too -- Mugabe Dégage!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 15:59:42 GMT
Yeah, if only.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 1, 2011 17:53:37 GMT
I spoke to an African woman at the carwash today - I said "What about Mugabe?" She rolled her eyes and shuddered and replied "You think so?, No it can't happen" And I believe her. And do you know why - because in Africa down southwards, its the crayfish mentality. Have you ever seen a bucket half filled with crayfish? Just as the one manages to claw its way to the rim of the bucket to escape, the rest down below claw at him and pull him down. So in the end, nobody gets out- they just die in the bucket.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 18:06:23 GMT
That's an interesting symbol, because there is a French word for political maneuvering or any situation where people frantically try to get above each other -- grenouillage -- which refers to the slippery antics of frogs in a basket.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 1, 2011 21:43:45 GMT
There is an interesting wave or domino effect in action!
In regard to what Fumobici said about the US backing the will of the people in countries whose dictatorial governments have the support of the US, "even ... when the outcome may not be in our clear self interest" -- -- the joke is, who decided what was in OUR self-interest? Where was the democratic process when many of those decisions were made?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2011 21:55:41 GMT
So, Mubarak has announced that he will not be a candidate in the next presidential election. Somehow, I just don't think that it will be enough.
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Post by mich64 on Feb 2, 2011 0:17:02 GMT
I do not think people expected him to be in the next election anyway, I thought his plan was for his son to take over next. After spending his life expecting to take over, I wonder what his son will do now?
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Post by fumobici on Feb 2, 2011 0:57:59 GMT
Once bitten, twice shy -- the United States has never forgotten how the act of abandoning the Shah of Iran blew up in its face. But of course, the country has poor short term memory, because it could have learned after doing all the wrong things in Cuba that there were other ways to talk to a new regime rather than turning them into instant mortal enemies. Better luck next time? Is Iran a cautionary tale of the dangers of popular sentiment prevailing or of the dangers of propping up a deeply unpopular regime? The ending of the cold war represented a chance for the West to move beyond the amoral cynical geopolitical calculus that led to the West supporting any number of evil dictatorships on the "enemy of my enemy" principle. It- we- mostly failed, probably mostly because our relationships with those regimes were profitable to influential multinational corporations. Now, conveniently a "war on terror" has come along to step in for the "war on communism" with a putatively whole new set of similar rationalizations for profitably (at least to those same influential multinationals) supporting repressive dictatorships. Enough. Enough of us and them, enough of abandoning our professed core principles on an ad hoc basis, enough meddling in other countries in defiance of their peoples' will, enough enemy of my enemy logic, enough of war and confrontation as first resort, enough making enemies where there should logically be none, enough invasions, enough secret backroom deals with tyrants, enough coercion through state violence overt or covert. Enough. The West has a winning set of principles, has built a useful template for civil society based on the consent of the governed, has shown that freedom of speech, freedom of religion, protection of minority interests, the rule of law are not only workable but functionally superior over the longer term than the existing alternatives. We need only honor these values by practicing them, propagating them by persuasion and leading by example. Iran et al will come around if we stop supplying them with good reasons not to.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 2, 2011 3:37:08 GMT
Does Mubarak think that the people "will come to their senses", or that some faction will come to his aid and turn this whole thing around? After thirty years of squatting over the people of Egypt, he probably can't believe it's really over. [Ibrahim Toma, a protester in his 20s] said Mubarak is afraid to leave for fear of prosecution. Tunisia recently issued an arrest warrant for Ben Ali, and the European Union has frozen his bank assets. “Mubarak is afraid to go because of everything he stole from the people, because of all the people he killed here in Tahrir Square and in Suez," said Mr. Toma. www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/print/content/view/print/360526This link talks about the positions of five world leaders on the protests in Egypt: www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/print/content/view/print/360348I am pretty much in accord with the US's official stance.
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