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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 22:01:33 GMT
That is a really intense scene. Frankly, I wasn't expecting things to get this violent.
Water cannons seems to have no effect at all on such a crowd. I am not at all recommending it, but I am wondering if they started using sewage cannons, if it would have a greater effect.
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Post by mich64 on Feb 3, 2011 22:24:39 GMT
Mark, like the rest of the members on this board I am so happy to read that you and your family are now in Europe and the UK and arrived safely.
The pieces you are writing are compelling, educational and historic. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.
The new Egyptian Vice Presiden, Omar Suleiman is being shown on CNN right now saying he blames certain nations covering the events. Foreign journalist are now reporting in secret locations due to ?Government supporters? some have been beaten, have had their equipment taken or broken, have been arrested or detained to keep them from reporting to the world the real state of affairs in the streets of Cairo.
I also heard today that Mubaraks' son will not run for election in September. Also that he feels if he would step down now, it would cause chaos, I do not know if he is really seeing what is happening now. I hope and pray for the Egyptian people in their quest for change and for their safety.
Welcome back to the board Mark, we all were concerned for you and your family and are now relieved. Mich
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 4, 2011 6:09:27 GMT
Mark, I'm so glad you and your family are finally in places where your hearts can beat normally again. I admire how cool and prepared you were. It's wonderful that you're married to someone who is as steadfast and practical as you. You all seemed to have done a great job of not communicating your very understandable concerns to your children in all of this. As far as I can tell, this is "new" news -- from @ a half hour ago. A "Day of Departure" for Mubarack will be staged, with tens of thousands of people being called upon to gather in Tahrir Square. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12362826Look at this: The BBC's Mark Mardell in Washington says that the [US] administration has been surprised by the attitude of the military and Mr Suleiman. The reports say [highlight=Yellow]Mr Suleiman was aware of campaign in recent days to intimidate the opposition[/highlight], and are now wondering whether he is the right man to lead an interim government, says our correspondent.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 4, 2011 6:14:51 GMT
Went back to Google News after posting the above, & found this from 15 minutes ago: edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/04/egypt.protests/VP Suleiman sounds every bit as in touch with reality and the mood of the people as Mubarack: Vice President Omar Suleiman blamed the media for some of the unrest that has plagued his country since anti-government demonstrations began January 25.
"I actually blame certain friendly nations who have television channels, they are not friendly at all, who have intensified the youth against the nation and the state," Suleiman told Nile TV. "They have filled in the minds of the youth with wrongdoings, with allegations, and this is unacceptable."
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Feb 4, 2011 7:26:18 GMT
Inflammatory images in the media are one thing, but the unrest was already there from what Mark has been saying. Didn't a lot of the organised demonstrations originate with emails and facebook etc...the power if the internet. ? I suppose that uncontrolled information can flow across the web and nobody really knows what's real.
I spose that Mr Suleiman was talking about Al Jazera etc, the trouble with any tv station is that they'll inevitably have an angle won't they? Here in the UK we know that our tv news is often sensationalised and politically biassed.
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Post by bjd on Feb 4, 2011 7:44:02 GMT
Blaming the media, especially foreign media, is of course a good way of saying that none of this would have happened if the TV crews hadn't encouraged the violence.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 4, 2011 8:22:46 GMT
K2, with the state of the water sometimes in Cairo I expect it's nearly sewage anyway. I suppose they fill up from the Nile though.
mich, it now seems confirmed that his son actually never left the country. Rumours abounded that he's 'fled' to the UK. At the time I mentioned I'd take this with a pinch of salt. The lad never wanted to be President anyway, it was his dad pushing him to start a dynasty. Interference with the media is a standard tactic and I'm not surprised at the extent of it. I'll say more in a minute.
bixa, et al - this is a controversial situation and I'm going to add to it, I make no apologies for stating an opinion, though it is an opinion of generality and doesn't necessarily come down to an individual level.
We are all used to political 'spin'. The shading of the truth and omissions of information to colour the message. Many nations, especially Arabic ones, are not skilled in this. Instead they lie. They say black is white, they say they didn't shut down the internet, they say they didn't pay thugs to go out on the streets etc etc. It is no more than bare faced lies said with a straight face that they understand the majority of the poorly educated citizens will believe - 'if Mubarak said it, it must be true'.
They are not as out of touch with the mood as they seem. They know exactly what the score is. But they will not admit it to the public. They will wrangle and wheedle, lie and obscure, not admit anything, stubbornly stick to what they have without a thought for anyone else but themselves. Everyone understands in the Asian world the concept of 'face' - and to lose it or keep it. Nobody really mentions that in the Arabic world it is more or less as acute. It's not about substance, it's about the appearance.
In a minor way, look at Egyptian furniture. Not very comfortable or practicable compared to western sofas etc. But it's bright, colourful and shiny. That's everything to them. If it looks good and impresses everyone, then it is good. Consider a slightly larger theme, houses. If you have a plot of land you build as big a house as you can on it to show your wealth/power and have a tiny little garden. Inside you devote a small space to the kitchen and bedrooms and the vast majority are 'Reception Rooms' for showing off. These serve no purpose other than to impress. They are massive affairs and if all the ground floor isn't taken up with them then there will be another one on the next floor up.
The saga I had with a simple CD player is typical. It didn't work but it looked like one, so that is good enough for most people and the shop had no shame in selling the whole batch that didn't work. As long as it looks good, no matter that it doesn't function properly is fine. Everyone washes their car once if not twice a day. No matter mechanically is knackered, as long as it's clean and looks as best as it can.
Mubarak now needs to save face, and that is a big motivation for him. The solution is as follows - everyone go home, arrange next week for the biggest bestest parade you can through the centre of Cairo exalting Mubarak. Call him the father of the nation and have women wailing, weeping and ululating their sadness that he must leave straight away due to the pressure from foreign nations. Play up to his ego with his contribution to the development of Egypt, the world, his peace keeping skills, his good looks, the way he has saved whatever he has saved like fluffy seal pups and the rain forest. Then he'll go. Thank him in the most effusive way you can and he'll go.
Continue to protest and he'll continue to dig his heels in, lie, cheat and do whatever is necessary for as long as possible to cling to whatever power he can get. The other alternative is the same end as Sadat. That'll get rid of him as well.
It is virtually unthinkable to treat a population as is happening, unthinkable to us. In many countries it is the norm. The Egyptian have a reputation over the years of putting up with so many things without complaint. This has been played on by the government and any protest is stamped on ten fold. Restriction of the media is regular, the invading and shutting down of opposition newspapers or other media. Beating up reporters is far from new. The corruption is systematic and endemic. Nothing gets done without the word you all know, backsheesh.
It's no use, as with the US administration expressing surprise as reported by the BBC, at anything. If they know (which they probably actually do) the Arab world then nothing that happens in this vein is a surprise. If anything, it is expected and you just wonder when it will be said or done rather than it coming out of the blue. The tactics of the government - initially allowing the protests, sending on the police, ordering the police to fight back violently, ordering the police away to allow for a taste of anarchy promoting fear in the population as to what will happen if there is no government to hold the reins tight, cutting off of communications, beatings and intimidation, sending pro Mubarak thugs in........ The Army are now shooting in the air to get control. It isn't working. The Army are in a bind. They don't know what to do. They are not trained in urban warfare and crowd control. They are trained to shoot and kill. That is all.
Oh dear. It will all end in tears. But blame not Mubarak. It is not him personally. By this I mean the whole reasons for the situation is not that the individual is exceptional, it is a large mix of the culture and the attitudes to life. Mubarak is a product of his past.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 4, 2011 8:27:39 GMT
cheery, on your point - if you follow it through in an Arabic mind it is that the reporting by the media of the events in Tunisia contributed if not outright caused the unrest in Egypt. It is that that started it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 9:27:54 GMT
Having worked for an Arab company for more than 30 years, I can confirm that absolutely everything that Mark has written about how Egypt (and the Arab world in general) is run, is identical all the way down to the lowest level. Our managers spend all of their time lying, hiding and cheating about everything possible. Everything is showy and superficial -- rooms full of computers that are not connected. Anything that is wrong is the fault of somebody else and absolutely never the people in charge, who are infallible, like the Pope.
Even if none of what is happening will affect my company, many of us can't help but rub our hands together in glee at the thought of how uncomfortable it is making our bosses.
If a mistake is so flagrant that it cannot be hidden, there will absolutely never be an apology for it. The most you can hope for is that they will say that there was a "misunderstanding," with of course the insinuation that you are the person who misunderstood.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 4, 2011 9:30:40 GMT
And I agree as well.
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Post by mickthecactus on Feb 4, 2011 9:40:22 GMT
Having worked for an Arab company for more than 30 years, I can confirm that absolutely everything that Mark has written about how Egypt (and the Arab world in general) is run, is identical all the way down to the lowest level. Our managers spend all of their time lying, hiding and cheating about everything possible. Everything is showy and superficial -- rooms full of computers that are not connected. Anything that is wrong is the fault of somebody else and absolutely never the people in charge, who are infallible, like the Pope. Even if none of what is happening will affect my company, many of us can't help but rub our hands together in glee at the thought of how uncomfortable it is making our bosses. If a mistake is so flagrant that it cannot be hidden, there will absolutely never be an apology for it. The most you can hope for is that they will say that there was a "misunderstanding," with of course the insinuation that you are the person who misunderstood. I'm amazed you are still working there....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 10:09:29 GMT
I'm amazed you are still working there.... 1. It wasn't always so bad, because it was run by ex-pats before, under the benign non-supervision of the owners -- the Gulf wars changed all that, as infidels can no longer be trusted. 2. The pay and advantages are not bad. 3. The incompetence of management allows most of us to have an enormous amount of freedom as long as the place keeps running because a) they don't know what we are doing and b) they certainly don't want to tire themselves out trying to figure it out.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Feb 4, 2011 10:46:04 GMT
Having worked for an Arab company for more than 30 years, I can confirm that absolutely everything that Mark has written about how Egypt (and the Arab world in general) is run, is identical all the way down to the lowest level. Our managers spend all of their time lying, hiding and cheating about everything possible. Everything is showy and superficial -- rooms full of computers that are not connected. Anything that is wrong is the fault of somebody else and absolutely never the people in charge, who are infallible, like the Pope.Even if none of what is happening will affect my company, many of us can't help but rub our hands together in glee at the thought of how uncomfortable it is making our bosses. If a mistake is so flagrant that it cannot be hidden, there will absolutely never be an apology for it. The most you can hope for is that they will say that there was a "misunderstanding," with of course the insinuation that you are the person who misunderstood. Sounds like the NHS.... I spose that it could happen anywhere where there is a sense of injustice, and where the leaders are thought to be corrupt. I can't imagine what it must be like to live under a regime where you can just disappear for speaking out. I spose that most people just keep their heads down, trying to provide for their families and stay clear of trouble. What sort of government will take the place of the current one? Mubarak came to power in the awful times after the assassination of President Sadat didn't he? What is the general feeling about the vice president? he won't be standing for election according to his recent speech...are there any likely candidates?
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Post by onlymark on Feb 4, 2011 11:44:35 GMT
Good questions Cheery. When you get the answers let me know.
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Post by onlymark on Feb 4, 2011 11:46:49 GMT
Just the fact that you are asking the questions shows how unclear it all is. Everything is just conjecture and hypothesis. I tend to turn away from all that and deal more with certainties or near certainties. Until that happens it's all just hot air to me.
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Post by mickthecactus on Feb 4, 2011 12:06:36 GMT
I'm amazed you are still working there.... 1. It wasn't always so bad, because it was run by ex-pats before, under the benign non-supervision of the owners -- the Gulf wars changed all that, as infidels can no longer be trusted. 2. The pay and advantages are not bad. 3. The incompetence of management allows most of us to have an enormous amount of freedom as long as the place keeps running because a) they don't know what we are doing and b) they certainly don't want to tire themselves out trying to figure it out. In which case it sounds an excellent place to work......... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2011 12:18:50 GMT
Slightly off topic, but I thought it was interesting that Al Jazeera is using current events to try to get a bit more freedom of the press in the United States.
Here is an excerpt from today's editorial on their website:
(...) In the United States, Al Jazeera faces a different kind of blackout, based largely on misinformed views about our content and journalism. Some of the largest American cable and satellite providers have instituted corporate obstacles against Al Jazeera English.
We are on the air and on the major cable system in the nation's capital, and some of America's leading policymakers in Washington, DC, have told us that Al Jazeera English is their channel of choice for understanding global issues. But we are not available in the majority of the 50 states for much of the general public.
We believe all Americans, not just those in senior governmental positions, could benefit from having the option to watch Al Jazeera English - or at least having the option not to watch us - on their television screens.
We know the demand is there. We have seen a 2000 percent increase in hits on our English-language website, and more than 60 percent of that traffic originates in the United States.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 4, 2011 16:43:55 GMT
Mark, your opinions and comments at #156 were so illuminating to me. I know I keep comparing what is happening in Egypt to the uprising in Oaxaca in 2006, but it's because the parallels are so striking. And as someone not from the culture, I identify closely with how you see and interpret the non-first world country in which you live.
So many of the features of Egyptian life you mention are familiar to me because of living in Mexico -- the giant (often unfinished) house, but with no place for a garden or for kids to play, the shiny cars (& here, shoes are always shined), the toleration of discomfort, etc.
Some of it I'll never get nor truly accept. But another parallel you mention is crucial, and has/is proven to be misleading. You say:
It is virtually unthinkable to treat a population as is happening, unthinkable to us. In many countries it is the norm. The Egyptian have a reputation over the years of putting up with so many things without complaint.
Here aguantar -- to tolerate, bear up under, endure -- is considered one of the Mexican virtues. In some ways, it's irritating to people from European-based cultures, as it can also seem to be unnecessary toleration of things that if everyone complained about, could be changed. So, for years I saw Oaxaqueños as rather sullen people who allowed the status quo. I was casting about for some other place to live in this country when the populace here rose up and said ya, basta!
One of the opinions repeatedly voiced in editorials and internet forums was that "they" should have gone through proper channels to achieve change. This totally ignored the fact that "they" had been trying proper channels for decades with no satisfaction, and were more often than not, victimized by those proper channels. From what I've read or watched on the news, and from what you're saying, it seems obvious that this is pretty much the situation and mood in Egypt as well.
You also cogently say:
They are not as out of touch with the mood as they seem. They know exactly what the score is. But they will not admit it to the public. They will wrangle and wheedle, lie and obscure, not admit anything, stubbornly stick to what they have without a thought for anyone else but themselves.
Well, that's certainly the case here, but I can't see that it's radically different from what goes on in my home country's (the US) politics, either.
Your proposed solution, of allowing Mubarack to go out as a hero, is a brilliant bit of psychology, but hardly likely to happen.
It seems that one way or the other, he will be out soon, but leaving behind his hand-picked deputy. Will the passion for change that fueled the protests remain? If so, how will it be shaped, and by whom?
Sorry for rambling on, but it's appearing more and more that popular uprisings are the only ways to effect profound change, or at least to express profound discontent. Unfortunately, governments have learned that a crushed movement may leave smoldering embers, but will remain banked long enough for those in power to finish out their terms of exploitation and pillage.
One last remark, about Al Jazeera's editorial -- perhaps one really positive thing that will come out of the recent events in Tunisia, Egypt, etc., will be a general realization that the local evening tv news is not enough to get any kind of grasp on events.
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Post by mich64 on Feb 4, 2011 16:47:58 GMT
Mark, Kerouac we are very fortunate on this board to have your experiences with the Arab community. I am finding I am able to understand your analogies and description of the culture in a way that is easier to relate the culture and this situation to.
My father's experiences are quite similiar to both your descriptions of how the Egyptian's work and live and he was there almost 40 years ago. Life has not evolved much like it has in countries all around them.
While in Egypt on UN duty, my father was held by a soldier with a knife to his throat, he had walked down the wrong laneway to get back to his tent in the middle of the night coming back from the outhouse, and was in the laneway used for UN members from Nepal, he was let go once they let him show his Canadian UN identification. He never forgot to make sure he carried his ID with him wherever he went for whatever reason.
My brother-in-law also expresses the same work ethic of the Afghan workers that he surpervised in Khandahar. It was very frustrating to him, deadlines were not a part of their vocabulary and he had to learn patience with their way of doing a day's work as he was there to help them rebuild. Mich
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Post by mich64 on Feb 4, 2011 16:59:09 GMT
Bixa, your comparisons are interesting and educational and very well written. Mich
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2011 17:44:17 GMT
The standoff continues, but it can't last forever.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 6, 2011 6:16:06 GMT
Excellent reporting & video here from the BBC. I wanted to slap little Miss Party Line. Thank goodness the protesters are holding the line and not allowing themselves to be corralled into a tasteful, toothless token clump. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12375426
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Post by bjd on Feb 6, 2011 7:14:56 GMT
The video in Bixa's link didn't want to load, but I read the article.
The States sends a guy (Wisner) to talk to the Egyptians. He claims Mubarak should stay on to oversee elections and so that things don't get out of hand. Then the US says this is Wisner's own opinion and doesn't reflect US policy??? WTF?
Everything I have been seeing and reading says that the US is having a hard time dealing with the Egyptian situation, but surely they should be in control of what their own envoy is saying?
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 6, 2011 7:27:25 GMT
Perhaps he just shot off his mouth? I had to laugh at this snippet of a news story about Wisner & the how his bosses are backpedaling furiously away from him:
Noting that the administration has great respect for Wisner and was deeply appreciative of his willingness to travel to Egypt last week, Crowley said the former US envoy toIndia and Egypt "has not continued in any official capacity" following his Cairo trip early this week.
Well, ain't that a fancy way to say he was fired?!
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Post by onlymark on Feb 6, 2011 8:51:47 GMT
I'm nowin Spain without an internet connection. I'll need to see how this all develops and can't contribute much for now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 15:13:30 GMT
Mark, is your tentative plan to hang out in Spain until the time is right to go back to Cairo and tie up the loose ends? Then again, it appears that it is still too soon to make even a tentative plan.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Feb 6, 2011 17:12:30 GMT
Thanks for letting us know. Hope that you're OK Mark.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 8, 2011 17:34:45 GMT
Hello to Mark, if he gets a chance to look in here. Mark, do you have any desire to be in Cairo right now, to see how things are developing and to watch over your house? At the scene Yolande Knell BBC News, Cairo
The determination of people queuing to get into Tahrir Square in the late afternoon sun has not been dented by officials' announcements of a series of concessions.
"We don't care what they are promising. Our demand is the same: Mubarak must leave," says Mariam defiantly.
A man standing behind her says the authorities have ignored the views of young people for too long. "I am 55 years old, I have tolerated this president for 30 years. This young generation is braver than mine. They have motivated us," he insists.
Some demonstrators concede that plans to make constitutional changes - which the opposition has long called for - were a positive step. They say release of the Google executive and blogger, Wael Ghonim, was another boost. Now the hope is that more can be achieved by keeping up large numbers in the heart of Cairo.Above is a sidebar from this BBC article, released an hour ago: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12394941Quote from the article: The protesters are continuing to call for Mr Mubarak to leave office immediately, and say they are sceptical about any transition managed by the government.And very right they are! Any regime that would incarcerate a person & keep him blindfolded for almost two weeks for the "crime" of setting up a Facebook page is a regime that needs to be gone NOW. Mubarack has had three decades to do the right thing -- the people should trust him now?
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Post by lola on Feb 8, 2011 17:49:04 GMT
This has been an amazing thread. Thanks to you knowledgeable ones!
I like Frank Rich's NYT column Sunday, where he points out that prior to last week few Americans would be able to pick Mubarak out of a police lineup. I may have been minimally above that level. Our ignorance of the Middle East, he says, is partly due to the lack of televised English al-Jazeera, except in DC and small parts of OH and VT.
I am skeptical of the power of Facebook and Twitter to do much of anything, except potentially lead authorities to troublemakers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 18:05:42 GMT
For people who have never spent much time in such a place, it is hard to imagine the omnipresence of somebody like Mubarak in the local media, day after day, year after year. Every Egyptian newspaper had a photo of Mubarak on the front page every day, doing something or other -- shaking a hand, getting off a plane, giving a speech. Same thing on the television stations, with the evening news beginning every day with an item about Mubarak, usually 2 or 3 more presidential items along the way -- shaking a hand, getting off a plane, giving a speech, often sitting on a velvet throne next to a guest of honor -- usually a king or an emir from a nearby country -- sitting in a similar chair, surrounded by huge flower arrangements. This sort of thing (it never mattered if the scene was in Cairo or some other place) : Imagine looking at this every day for 30 years. Some people cannot imagine it any other way, but many more have had access to the world media and have seen that it is just not normal. As a temporary visitor to the country, I would see these things and find them funny, but as a resident, I would have found it unbearable. All of the dictatorships of the world try to control information the same way, in accordance with their means. I remember that when I went to Burma, one of the big items in the news one day was the prime minister inaugurating three latrines in a rural village.
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