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Post by onlymark on Mar 18, 2011 21:39:05 GMT
The point I make is that we (and I generalise in including myself in the 'we') have become too sensitive. We are shit scared of offending anyone.
It all began when they took the golliwog off jars of jam.
There is also a problem with a TV series called "Midsomer Murders" - set in a quintessential English village. It hasn't got any ethnic minorities in it. Oh dear, what a fuss.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 21:45:59 GMT
France, which fights ethnic codes and separation with every law that it can think of, happens to have one of the highest percentages of mixed racial/ethnic/religious marriages and civil partnerships in the world. While there are sometimes some awful situations (à la "Not without my daughter"), things continue to go in the right direction, and many families have been brought together in relative harmony by their offspring and the resultant grandchildren. In my own office, there are Franco-Chinese, Franco-Iranian, Franco-Lebanese marriages, as well as West Indian-Algerian, Bangladeshi-Vietnamese, Tunisian-Indonesian and Pakistani-French unions. All of the children that I have seen are 100% French, to the despair of some of the parents. Yes, some of the cultural heritage may be lost, but damn it, these kids are living in France and want to fit in. Certain other countries weirdly do not understand that.
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Post by frenchmystiquetour on Mar 18, 2011 22:27:06 GMT
Nobody should have an ethnic identity chosen for them nor should anyone be forced to choose an ethnic identity if they wish not to. My point is that there is nothing wrong with collecting statistical demographic info in order for a society to understand the changes which it may be undergoing and to devise policies which protect people against discrimination.
onlyMark - I bet what you said was funny but I'm not smart enough to figure out where the humor is.
BTW, this is my first and will be my last attempt at engaging in a serious debate. From now on I am only going to discuss more lighthearted topics, such as irritable bowel syndrome.
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 18, 2011 22:31:44 GMT
"then describing their m.o., their clothing, and appearance." Their m.o. is fine but I doubt if their clothing is any different to any youth. Their appearance then has a problem when you try and describe their skin colour. However, in the UK situation cited in the article, advisories could have been put out warning girls away from pimp gangs, then describing their m.o., their clothing, and appearance. [highlight=Yellow]At that point, saying that gangs operating in a certain area were composed of people of X ethnicity is not the same as saying that all people of that background are bad.[/highlight] Leaving out part of what I said certainly changed the meaning. And "golliwogs" emphatically did need to be taken off the jars. Such imagery states that it's okay to see certain groups as comical or somewhat less than human. If it takes the kinds of laws France has to finally make people see each other as people, well then, so be it. People can preserve cultural heritage through traditional dishes and honoring the memory of those who came to what is now the mother country. But it's way past time for immigrants & their children and grandchildren to huddle together in enclaves, effectively rejecting the new country, just as it's past time for those of us with the "right" racial/national/whatever background to stop thinking that we're better. If you think about it, most of the population of the US should really be beige right now, with respondents to questionnaires unable to decide what to put down for racial/ethnic background.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 23:53:18 GMT
Firstly I want to say that I agree with much of what Bixa and FMT are saying. Kerouac, yes, the kids and grand-kids of the first generation of people of color (and there are many shades from different countries) are very different from their parents. They have changed, and have had to change in order to fit in to the population around them.
Also, the link that has been put up to say that Pakistani men are out there recruiting young white girls, I find inaccurate. Firstly it is an article that is a few years old now, and so the information is outdated. secondly who wrote it? It sounds like something that someone from the National Front web site would put up and probably has put at some point in time in time. Perfect if you want to incite hatered for Pakistani's or Muslims in general, I'm sure. Just perfect if you want to take a few bad apples and label the whole community as something less than savory.
I'd like to do my own studies on this subject. In comparison how many white males are there out there up North recruiting young girls? And doesn't the North of England have a reputation of young men and women being very easy anyway? Or is that just a matter of opinion?
As for the 'Golliwog' word being taken off, I for one am glad it is no longer used. I've personally been called that name by racist bigots in the past and it hurts. As a young child, the school used to have golliwog dolls and it was only when I grew older that I found myself bewildered and embarrassed at having used the word. I'm sure some still use it to intimidate or make themselves feel like they are better in some way than a person of color. The word, just as the word 'nigger' signifies a lot of hate, especially as it was used in so many negative ways in history.
the fact is we can put any race of people down, it's easy to do, it's easy to incite hatred, look how good Hiltar was at it. An insane psychopath, but with charisma and power.
I have no problem with writing down my race on official papers, it serves a purpose for the good and I'm fine with that. There are still people out there who will not employ a person of color or a disabled person, or a gay or a Muslim or whatever their particular dislike might be. If it's documented at least we know where we stand and who is being discriminated against. More and more the 'other' box is being tickecd, because, like my own kids, (who have about 5 different nationalies in them), people are becoming more mixed race.
I really believe that if you are a white person and have not personally been through the many, many instances of negative behaviors and hate towards you, then you cannot possibly tell the whole story. You are seeing it all second hand. If you are blessed enough to have people of different colors and nationalities in your own circle of friends and family then you have more the reason to fight such negative stereotyping and ignorance. After all they will be the ones who will suffer in the end from racial put downs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2011 0:12:27 GMT
btw as for the video of the girl. I have the same reaction as bixa on that one. In that she makes me want to slap her across the face. How many times have I seen the same sort of spolit little ditzes talking like that about other non white-races? Many, many. And apart from the race they are discussing, the talk is all the same. She needs to get an education - the kind that she won't find in her books, obviously.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 19, 2011 7:36:34 GMT
onlyMark - I bet what you said was funny but I'm not smart enough to figure out where the humor is. It's just a rearranging of the letters in frenchmystiquetour.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 19, 2011 7:52:56 GMT
[highlight=Yellow]At that point, saying that gangs operating in a certain area were composed of people of X ethnicity is not the same as saying that all people of that background are bad.[/highlight] Leaving out part of what I said certainly changed the meaning. It wasn't deliberate. It's just that even if you place a geographic restriction on what you say, even if you say all the rest as regards m.o. style of dress etc then as soon as you mention the word 'Pakistani' or 'Asian' it is enough to promote a outcry of comment. No matter, in the UK, how much you try and avoid it, as soon as it is mentioned, in whatever circumstances and as long as it is in a negative way - then there is an outcry. And it's not just Asian, it is any ethnic group. There is a culture of fear now in the UK that you just cannot mention any group at all, ever, if it is negative - not even a portion of that group - not even if you say that it doesn't apply to all of them. You will have your comments jumped upon and twisted, misconstrued and thrown back in your face. If you ask any Pakistani in that area who is committing these crimes 99% of them will say it is Pakistanis. If you ask any one in authority the same question, 99% will avoid pointing out their ethnicity.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 19, 2011 8:14:27 GMT
Also, the link that has been put up to say that Pakistani men are out there recruiting young white girls, I find inaccurate. Firstly it is an article that is a few years old now, and so the information is outdated. secondly who wrote it? It sounds like something that someone from the National Front web site would put up and probably has put at some point in time in time. The first link is from January this year from the Independent newspaper. The second one is from the Times from Sept 2007 but as the very recent link shows, it is something still going on - and what also is still going on is the problem of mentioning the ethnicity of the offenders.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 19, 2011 8:26:54 GMT
I'd like to do my own studies on this subject. In comparison how many white males are there out there up North recruiting young girls? And doesn't the North of England have a reputation of young men and women being very easy anyway? Or is that just a matter of opinion? How many white males? I can only go by the rate of convictions for this offence in that area which showed, as mentioned in an article from the Times that out of 56 males convicted, 3 were white. Are the young girls in the north easy? They certainly have a reputation for being so. But you run the danger there of tarring them all with the same brush - which is just the same thing about saying the offenders are Pakistani (or of Pakistani heritage, as seems to be the way to say it). You run the risk of giving the impression that they all are. It's also like saying you cannot rape a prostitute. Just because they have a reputation for being easy (young girls) it sounds like they somehow contributed to the offence - "They're being sexually abused and made into prostitutes but it's not as bad as they were easy anyway" - you surely don't mean anything like that, do you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2011 11:37:49 GMT
No I don't, what I am trying to point out how easy it is label people. Notice the last line in my quote below:
I guess I could go on quote statistics of Eastern Europeans in the last few years of immigration crimes in the South of the UK (it has been a big problem), or pull out statics on any number of races in the UK and elsewhere. It's easy to do. And I could also point out the fact that a record number of attacks are committed by white people on people of color in the months and years following 9/11.
I could can even go back to when my family and I first came to the UK and pull out figures of all the crimes that whites committed against Indians and blacks at the time. The list is endless. The sad thing is as most attacks where not documented (as not thought of important enough to even mention), the statics would be inaccurate, and only a reflection of what really went on. It needs someone who was there to say what it was really like and the crimes that were actually committed at the time.
That's not true. I lived in the UK just recently for nearly 3 years. And I can tell you that people are not afraid to state what they think. In fact racism is very much alive there in all it's forms. However some might have finally have realized just how they come across while they shout racial slurs across the street or be embarrassed that the police are telling people of color not to venture out after dark in most areas of the UK as a record amount of racial attacks are happening to minorities. (As was the case while I was there). But I doubt it somehow, things don't change that easily unfortunately. And of course there will always be instigators and racial parties who will make sure that at least a part of the while population keeps on hating.
The sad thing is, it's almost expected that these kind of attacks on minorities will happen, the talk on the street is, well they come over here, so they have to put up with whatever is doled out to them. While I was there skinheads even killed a 21 year old young South Asian man just 10 miles from where I was. The area that I lived in was so crime ridden by young whites, that it was at the point of explosion.
The Police are not snow white either, I had several encounters with them while I was there, and they little about most of the crime that was happening. ASBO orders (Anti social behavior orders) where handed out like candy to young offenders, but nothing changed. If the offenders were ever caught and if they were ever convicted, they got no more than a slap on the wrist, if that even. I do wonder if the offenders had been of color how many more would have been tracked down and convicted? I have a long thread of my time spend in the UK on sunnyds about my time spent there and what went on.
What I'm trying to point out is that it's not the ethnicity of the offender, but just that there is a huge problem with crimes in general being committed in certain parts of the UK. And depending on the area you live in, and the population of that area, the statics (however actuate they may be) reflect this.
And where is evidence/data to prove this statement? Or is it, like I suspect, just your own opinion?
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Post by onlymark on Mar 19, 2011 12:45:12 GMT
So is one of your points that it is easy to label people and to give an example you say that young northern girls are easy - thus giving them a label that may be unwarranted. Ok, I understand that.
You also point out the high incidence of attacks on other races/nationalities. Granted, there were and there still are.
And when I said that you just cannot mention any group at all, you said, "That's not true. I lived in the UK just recently for nearly 3 years. And I can tell you that people are not afraid to state what they think." That is perfectly true and I may have given the wrong idea when I failed to mention this applied to those where their comments would be reported, I thought that was what we were on about, my mistake - not the common man/woman in the street. They will still say as they think.
Then you state the Police are not snow white and talk about ASBO's and slaps on the wrist when caught. You do understand that the Police have no influence on what happens with the Crown Prosecution Service and the Courts? Many Police were, and are, rightly frustrated that no matter how hard they work to detect and bring an offender to Court the punishment metered out is of virtually no consequence to the offender. That has nothing to do with the Police at all.
As to you saying that if the offenders had not been white then more time and effort would have been expended in catching them - I've no idea. What you are in fact saying is that because the Police are mainly white and the offenders are mainly white then less effort is made to catch them. I tend to think that race crimes are dealt with a hell of a lot more seriously than they used to be due to the current way of thinking and sensitivity, and if it was anything it'd be the other way round to your impression - any hint of race being an issue by a white person in an offence is stamped upon.
You say - "What I'm trying to point out is that it's not the ethnicity of the offender, but just that there is a huge problem with crimes in general being committed in certain parts of the UK." I agree. There is is that problem with crime i.e. a lot of it in certain areas.
However I still stand by the main point of all this in that if there is crime being committed and by a certain racial group - apart from whites - and if what you say will be reported or come out into the general public arena as it is made by the Police spokesman or a politician or whatever - that person will take all possible measures to not say it is being done by a specific ethnic group. And it is that that bugs me. Everything else, whether agreed or disagreed, is peripheral to that being the point that I'm trying to get across.
As for the 99% thing - of course it's an opinion. Do we need now to back up opinions with statistics? No matter if they are inaccurate they are still an opinion and should be taken that way. It isn't a battle to determine who has the best and rightest statistics. It's an opinion, take it how you will.
Last thing - "persons of colour" - is that the PC way to refer to anyone who isn't white now? I'll have to remember that so as not to offend anyone. Although - technically isn't it that the more colour something loses, the darker it becomes? The colour white having all colours and as they gradually fade away you end up with nothing but black?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 0:12:44 GMT
You see I find that strange, because from what I observed no one cared about mentioning the ethnicity of anyone else, no matter how official the conversation may have been, or who it was observed by.
The police did not do enough to stop crime in the area I was in. That's a fact, people were sick of the attacks and violence and the damage to their properties. I wouldn't say the police turned a blind eye, but it was close to that. At least they seemed to have given up to some degree. Maybe they were frustrated about the whole situation too, I don't know. They have a job to do, to protect the average citizen, they fell very short of this duty.
If any of the thugs were caught, and brought to court, again, little was done. Yes, I realize that the police don't have much influence as to what happens in court, but from start to finish the whole system was not working. And people were suffering.
You think so? Maybe the mother and her children who were burned to death in their flat in the high street might disagree with you. Or the numerous Asian owned shops that always had windows smashed in by racist thugs would disagree. Racist incidents were an every day affair. I don't think you really have any idea what you are talking about to be honest. You are white and so protected in a white country. You cannot possibly know what it's like for non-white to live in most places in the UK.
You see whenever I mention anything about discrimination, and it's happened on here before and on TTR, I get jumped on, the truth is I'm afraid to mention that people of color may be discriminated against, unfairly treated, unfairly arrested, unfairly charged, unfairly convicted, while white who do the same thing get away Scot free.
And how about all the crimes against women by white men? how many rapes by them per year? How many women are abused and die at the hands of white men in the UK? You'd be surprised at the numbers.
As for being PC. Well, many people of color spend their entire lives being PC. Instead of saying what they really think of how they are treated and what they really want to call the whites who treat them like that way, they are instead PC about it all. Mind you , they don't have much choice in that if they want to live in a white country right? Aren't you the lucky one, being a while male, and having that choice.
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 20, 2011 5:30:54 GMT
However I still stand by the main point of all this in that if there is crime being committed and by a certain racial group - apart from whites - and if what you say will be reported or come out into the general public arena as it is made by the Police spokesman or a politician or whatever - that person will take all possible measures to not say it is being done by a specific ethnic group. And it is that that bugs me. Everything else, whether agreed or disagreed, is peripheral to that being the point that I'm trying to get across. I don't know anything about the political climate in the UK, but can't we assume that all police spokesmen everywhere speak cautiously, and for good reason? For one thing, when reporters are clamoring for information, the spokesperson has to be careful to only release strict facts, without conjecture. By the same token, mentioning the ethnic background of a gang, for instance, without reams of statistics, charts, etc. to back it up, might have the press reporting that "police are targeting X group". That was what Vaz chided Straw for, in your first link: What you can do is look at the facts of these national cases, give it to an agency, make a proper investigation and see how we can deal with these networks of people who are involved in this horrendous crime.Straw in fact does target an entire group with the way he words his statement. Besides shooting himself in the foot when it comes to getting votes, it's an authority figure pointing out that a certain group is not a true part of the country. As for the second link, it feels incendiary for the main purpose of selling papers. Even if every word is true, in it there are mothers bitching about the police -- one of whom allowed her thirteen year old daughter to have a twenty-four year old boyfriend -- mothers who could have done much more to protect their children instead of blaming the authorities after the fact. I'm not trying to be contentious, simply stating that I believe simple respect for all citizens should be expected from cops, politicians, or anyone speaking publicly.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 20, 2011 6:14:12 GMT
Deyana, why do you think I left the Police after ten years? Ten years of working hard and establishing myself in a stable, relatively well paid job with plenty of benefits and additional payments? I know perfectly well what the Police in the UK are like.
I also know that an individual Policeman (sorry, Policeperson) has his (sorry, their) hands tied by rules and regulations passed down from afar. He has no discretion nowadays, has no motivation to use initiative and has absolutely no reason to work harder than the minimum necessary. Anything, absolutely anything he does is scrutinised from all angles and guidelines and regulations - why do you think we are now in such a state that two Policemen stood by whilst they watch a man drown in two feet of water because they weren't allowed, due to regulations, to enter the water to save him? They were not trained in doing so and hadn't filled in a risk assessment form.
If they went in after him they'd run the risk of losing their jobs at the least. One day I called at a house due to the report of a 'domestic dispute' by the neighbours. It resulted in me being shot at with a shotgun at which I turned and ran, losing my hat in the process on the pathway to the front door. The first supervisor who turned up, an Inspector, the first words he said to me were a bollocking for not having my hat on.
When you say "I'm afraid to mention that people of color may be discriminated against, unfairly treated, unfairly arrested, unfairly charged, unfairly convicted, while white who do the same thing get away Scot free." - and again in your own words - "And where is evidence/data to prove this statement? Or is it, like I suspect, just your own opinion?"
Of course it's your opinion only, it's the impression you've had from living there a relatively short while compared to the thirty five years I lived there in a county that has the statistics to prove it is one of the most violent in the country. Are you saying that the system conspires to convict only those 'of colour'? Have you given thought to the point that for whatever reason (social, education etc) it is they that are actually committing most of those crimes in proportion to the non person of colour population?
You've been through some very bad experiences, no doubt about it, but as you think I am biased one way, I think you are biased the other. And the truth lies somewhere in between. You say - "While I was there skinheads even killed a 21 year old young South Asian man just 10 miles from where I was." - and three streets away from where I lived Yardies killed a young English bloke. We can trade stories all day trying to top each other.
You also say - "And how about all the crimes against women by white men? how many rapes by them per year? How many women are abused and die at the hands of white men in the UK? You'd be surprised at the numbers." - no I wouldn't and the reason is that in a majority white population it's only natural that the figures would show that the majority of males who commit these crimes are white. You'll also find that in any sphere of crime there are more whites who commit that crime than non whites - and only because there are a lot more whites. If there were any statistics to show the proportion per section of the population of pimps by colour or drug dealers or illegal gun holders or knife crime - I wonder what that would show.
Last thing - you say, "Maybe the mother and her children who were burned to death in their flat in the high street might disagree with you. Or the numerous Asian owned shops that always had windows smashed in by racist thugs would disagree. Racist incidents were an every day affair." - in reply to me saying that they are treated more seriously nowadays than they used to be. Just because these things are still happening doesn't mean it isn't taken more seriously.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 20, 2011 7:13:01 GMT
Deyana, you said - "the truth is I'm afraid to mention that people of color may be discriminated against, unfairly treated, unfairly arrested, unfairly charged, unfairly convicted, while white who do the same thing get away Scot free." You may not recognise his name - Sorious Samura - but he's an interesting person. He did a report on gang rape - One of the few police forces to have begun recording the figures of reported gang rape is the Metropolitan Police. In 2008 alone, they received reports of 85 gang rapes. Using the Met's definition of gang rape – those involving three or more perpetrators – we began to look at the number of convictions. We tracked down 29 cases, from January 2006 to March 2009, in which a total of 92 young people were convicted of involvement in gang rape. One fact stood out. Of those convicted, 66 were black or mixed race, 13 were white and the remainder were from other countries including Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. Clearly this is not a crime exclusive to black communities, but I found it impossible to ignore the fact that such a high proportion were committed by black and mixed-race young men.www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.htmlAnd if you think the reason for the high percentage of black as opposed to white people being convicted is due to anything other than it is they that are doing it, in another article - "Official police statistics have shed fresh light on the link between crime and race in London." Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan Police to have been committed by black men. However - These ones do not show that 54 per cent of London’s street crimes are committed by black men. They do not even show that 54 per of those convicted in court of street crime are black men. But they do indicate that in 54 per cent of street crimes where police catch their suspect, that suspect is black. Is it credible that the very high proportion of street crime which is identified as perpetrated by black men is simply down to the racism of either the police or the victims of crime, and that in reality, no black man is involved? When a disproportionate number of victims identify their attackers as black males, it is not easy to see what the Met can do to investigate those crimes without being criticised for “disproportionately targeting black men”. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
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Post by onlymark on Mar 20, 2011 7:21:51 GMT
Racism is rife Deyana. I agree. I also agree that it looks very much like anyone other than white is being targeted when it comes to who is committing any crime. I also agree that the majority of racial attacks are by whites on other races. But it may well be that the figures show that in certain offences it is actually non whites who commit most of that crime. It would also be natural that as whites are in the majority, by a vast amount, that any racial crime occurs where they are the offender and not the victim.
The figures don't give reasons why this is so, it just states that it is the case - as wrong as it might be for these crimes to happen in the first place. And just to get a bit of perspective on how bad the police are - name me an ethnic minority who would be better off having dealings with the police in their own country.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 15:33:05 GMT
This of course does not in any way help to solve the problem, but it can be pointed out that the actual race of the people has nothing to do with these crimes. They can also be described as "young immigrant males from countries with no respect for independent women" or "local youth living in extreme poverty with drug-addicted or alcoholic parents" or whatever else fits. Other people of the same race are in the meantime studying at places like Oxford or Cambridge.
I think the whole point is not to take shortcuts. Instead of saying "more black people do nasty things than white people," all of the qualifiers need to be added: poor, unemployed, in need of psychiatric treatment, abandoned at a young age, etc. If you find people of other races with all of the same qualifiers, you will probably find them doing all of the same things rather than going to church or applying to become social workers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 16:31:15 GMT
I was going to reply with the same sort of answer, but you said it much better than I could have put it, Kerouac.
Mark, you ask a lot of questions, I'm not an expert, all I know is that poverty, living conditions, location of where you live, (slums of the inner cities or the more poser home counties for instance), plus many other factors play a part as how an individual will turn out. Color, really, has nothing to do with it all all. Apart from the fact that a person of color needs to do better, try harder, be more conformed, just be better in so many different ways in order to achieve the same sort of success as a white person.
Also I wouldn't put all my faith in statistics either, they can be inaccurate, biased, the way the data is gathered, unfair, depending on who is doing the collecting, and made to look like whatever the person putting them out wants them to be. I'm sure you know this.
Crime is wrong, whoever commits it. Instigating hate is also very wrong, no matter against whichever race. We are born into whatever race we are, we don't choose it, we can only do the best we can with it. No matter what race we are, we have a responsibility to treat others decently, whether they are black, white or purple. Pointing fingers at certain races just because you've heard that some of them do this or that is just plain ignorant.
It was interesting reading your viewpoint on this Mark. This is my last post on here regarding this.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 20, 2011 18:10:19 GMT
Funnily enough I did say - "that for whatever reason (social, education etc)". So I agree it isn't because of their colour or lack of it. They are a product of their environment, not because they are black or whatever. You make it sound that I say that because they are black they are criminal. Far from the case. It would happen to any person of any colour.
And funnily enough after you said - "And where is evidence/data to prove this statement?" - you now go on to say - "I wouldn't put all my faith in statistics either"
And as to reading my viewpoint - I think you have selectively decided what it is without truly reading what I've written. And I suspect it is that I am a white racist with no sympathy or liking for anyone other than my own race, as you have accused me of before when I've disagreed with you. As I am a product of my environment and experiences, so are you. The difference is that I fully understand and appreciate what you say, 'where you're coming from' and I agree with you on may points, whereas you don't appear to.
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Post by mich64 on Mar 20, 2011 18:17:41 GMT
The thread has lead to an interesting debate. Well written by all. The ferocity of opinions show we all want the same thing, to be treated with kindess, equality and respect no matter what sex, ethnicity, financial status etc. My community is probably 95% white and we have most of the crime issues listed above therefore the crimes committed are largely by white individuals. Needing something to blame it on, the community will sometimes break it down by white, perhaps the crime was by an italian person, or maybe it was an irish person or a scottish person. My point is that even the white people break down the white population. It is so ridiculous. My experience has been it is the environment the individual was raised in such as Kerouac described. Some children just do not stand a chance and then there are those who grow and are just so very strong they succeed to change their environment and their future. I wish we could work harder on helping that environment in communities to lessen the need for any individuals to commit crimes. Cheers, Mich
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 21:07:30 GMT
Did I say I was through posting on this thread? Mark, no I don't think you are a racist, in fact I know you're not. I just think you are very set in your ways, don't like being disagreed with, and see things as very black and white (no pun intended). I did read through all your comments and have taken in your point of view, maybe I didn't comment on everything, but I don't always have that much time on my hands to do so. Mich, I agree with what you say. Hopefully one day, we can come to a place where color, background, ethnicity, race, won't matter anymore. I don't like using quotes, but I really like this one by Dr. Martin Luther King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."It's a good dream to have. Oh and regarding that I said: 'and where's the evidence/data etc' It was tongue in cheek. No icon for that, maybe this one comes close --->
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 21:35:27 GMT
It would probably curl our hair to hear some of the stereotypes that the non western world has about us. But luckily for us, most of the statements would probably not be branding us as petty criminals.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 5:29:53 GMT
I never forced you to come back and post deyana. And as for the King comment, if you took away the judgement on the colour of the skin by people then you'd always find something else to discriminate with - like caste. And I'm sure you are aware of the horrendous and ongoing discrimination and injustices in India, not because of skin colour, but because of caste. I've never been to a place where you are discriminated against because you have the wrong name (it is often an indicator of caste). God help you if you were born a Dalit - because you are stuck with that the rest of your life and can never be thought of anything else than an "Untouchable". List of castes in India - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_castesDeyana, what would you say if I'd said that Dalits always bring their families round to my apartment block at the weekends to do their laundry - and speak too loud on their cell phones in the library? Not so discriminatory or what? More acceptable than saying it's those Paki's? Or Indians? I may see things more black and white than most, but I am also more realistic than most. I see that you are complaining of the discrimination in the UK when in your birth country it is a hundred times worse. Campaign or do something to get that changed, then move to lesser offending countries (although they do offend, granted). If anyone wants to see discrimination raw, close up and in your face, go to India. Where do you think the word 'pariah' came from? However, apart from that, I do love the country.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 10:52:43 GMT
I was 5 when I moved from the India. Yes, I am Indian, but I haven't had to deal with what goes on there personally. It a very poor country their problems are immense, no one is going to change them over night. If it was in my power to do something to improve their lot in life, I would. Each country has it's own problems. Why didn't you go and demonstrate with all the Egyptians just recently when the unrest was happening?, instead of hopping on a plane and getting the hell out of there as soon as you could? After all you live there, take what is good about the country for yourself, but when the going gets tough, you leg it. (yes, I know it's probably unfair of me to point this out, but it goes with the same sort of slant as your 'why don't you go to India and do something)?
And it always boils down to that in the end with people like you. In that " What right to you have to complain about MY country when yours has this and that problem". If that's the only defense you have then that's just plain sad. I talk about the UK because that's where I was brought up and that's the country I know well. I don't know India much at all. The UK is/was MY country, and I feel that I have a right to point out what goes on there, regardless of my color. Sorry if that offends or disturbs you.
I think we have all been realistic on this thread, your reality is your reality, and I'm sure only you can understand it to the fullest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 11:01:03 GMT
So many of the comments in here come across as incredibly ignorant and naive. It seems that so many people think ,consider themselves to be non racist,impartial,etc.when,in actuality,I do not know very many people,myself included,who do not hold some form of racism or cultural insensitivity as it were. Clearly, persons who have been a victim of some type of discrimination in their life based on race,culture,ethnicity,social status,sex,etc., surely cannot in all honesty say that they don't have some form of prejudice toward the person(s) who discriminated against them. It's a rare breed,no pun intended,to find someone who in all honesty,does not hold some form,degree, of prejudice or insensitivity toward another group of people different from them. What people share in public,be it on a forum such as this,is generally very different from what people will share in private. C'mon "you people",get honest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 13:05:34 GMT
You are right there, Casimira. My (white) boyfriend, tells me the same thing. Even if it's in an unconscious way, we tend to think a certain way of certain people. This brings me to the question - can we be racist against one race and not another? depending on what our experiences have been in the past? I reckon so. I knew one guy one who didn't like Indians because he'd been chucked by his ex-Indian girl friend. That was enough for him to start the hating...
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Post by fumobici on Mar 21, 2011 15:23:32 GMT
Interesting thread, but then I like a "lively" discussion. We are all of course victims of our own prejudices based on our experiences, we as humans find it much easier to deal with unfathomably complex realities by simplifying things into categories. I think it's an innate part of human cognition and it does allow one to make some degree of sense out of the world, but at the same time leads to all kinds of erroneous thinking.
When I was young I lived just a block off of what is now ML King Blvd. in Berkeley and went to a predominately black school in my predominately black neighborhood, having moved there from a lily white little university town, Davis. It was a little terrifying at first being a minority for the first time and I naturally was exposed to some racism as one would expect but- and I think this is human nature as well- as soon as I'd made some friends and realized that it was just as socially difficult for the black kids to befriend a blond haired white boy who "didn't belong there" as it would be if the situation were reversed. The black kids who were friendly to me paid some degree of social cost for interacting and hanging out with me, I could hear the comments, but eventually, maybe because I was a useful teammate to have at basketball and was raised by good parents without any preexisting racial prejudices, I eventually became comfortable there and could walk around what was considered a somewhat dangerous neighborhood mostly unmolested and treated with a degree of respect. I certainly stood out in a way that made my presence hard to ignore and yet somehow made that neighborhood my own and fit in in a way.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 21, 2011 15:40:55 GMT
Why did I and my family not stay in Egypt when the riots were in full swing? Is that a serious question? Plus the fact that at exactly the same time, as I'd said, we had flights out to take a holiday anyway?
You now make it sound as if I'm telling you, as no doubt you've been told many times before, to go back to India. You know I'm not. But because you have been told that so many times before you automatically think I am telling you also. You also understand that I am saying that you have connection to a country that has far worse for discrimination than the UK.
It strikes me as a little odd that someone complains so vehemently about a certain thing when if they really look at the subject they should realise that in comparison there are far far worse offenders. I am not making excuses or belittling the seriousness of it but you seem to lack the perspective of the whole story and focus on one small part of it.
It is still extremely wrong, discrimination, but you seem to be a little blinkered and I am trying to point out the ironic situation that you personally are in - that you have a direct connection to one of the worst countries for discrimination in the world. Far exceeding what is happening in the UK (which, and I keep saying it so you don't twist that round, still has its problems).
You can complain about the UK all you want as to all intents and purposes that is where you lived, but to me it strikes me as being somewhat naive about the fuller picture. I open myself to extreme criticism here as I have also left the UK because I know there are better places in my circumstances to live, but I still am defensive of the country - but it does make me uncomfortable when someone of any race, nationality, colour, religion, sex, tribe or anything else you can accuse me of discriminating against chooses to move there for a better life or for whatever reason, and then complains about it.
For anything that is wrong in the UK (and there are many things) complaining is fine - but you cannot lose sight of that for every subject of complaint there are ten countries with far more extreme examples.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 15:57:33 GMT
So what you are saying Mark, is that I have less right to complain about the injustices and racism in the UK then a white person because I am brown and because I have a connection to India? I see. btw, I didn't choose to move there, my family did that for me.
And you don't live in the UK, why? Because it's undesirable to you? Because you have dark skinned children and wife who you know will be (at some point in time) targeted by racists and discrimination over in the UK? Be honest now. So instead you live in places where they 'fit' in more. Doesn't that in some way make you feel uncomfortable too? That you have to do that? Instead of telling the likes of me to stop complaining about what I saw and see with my own two eyes, maybe you should be fighting against discrimination, if not for your sake then for your kids? after all (like I said before), they will be the ones to suffer at the hands of people who look down on them, and may one day tell them to shut up or get back to South America, of wherever they came from? Think about it.
fumobici, your story of your childhood reads just like mine, but in reverse if you like. My family moved to a Lilly white town where 99% of the population where whites. I really admired the first few white kids that went against what they knew would make them unpopular and reached out to me. Others eventually followed. It was the first time I went to school and I also, had no pre-conceived ideas of racism and such. Probably why I've always veered towards individuals who do their own thing, instead of just following the crowd in order to gain popularity.
quote by onlymark:
No, I don't lack anything of the sort. You started 'the small part of it', when you focused on Pakistani men and prostitutes'. and I gave my opinion on that, simple.
About as serious as your question to me as to why I don't go and solve the problems in India. If I lived in India, I would certainly do my part to help in any way that I could. Something that I have in mind anyway for the future. But what are you doing to help the average Egyptian there right now? You are only there for your own benefit, with little regards to the local people around you. Kind of like what the English have done to many of the poorer countries in the centuries and years gone by.... and if for some reason it's not convenient for you to use the country for your own good anymore, for whatever reason, you run away. I guess nothing much changes in some ways.
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