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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 15:47:59 GMT
I've never turned a blind eye to their disadvantages and I have said over and over that there is discrimination. I've never said that I want to suffer from their disadvantages, I have said that it would be better for them to have my advantages. It's the opposite of what you are saying. But what I also said is - "if you want to be equal in all things with me then by rights I should be equal with you. We should be treated equally in everything, even if originally it was an advantage you have over me."
I am all for any ethnic minority having the same advantages as myself - get that message. But the flip side of that is that I should then have whatever I say, as a white man, treated with the same gravity and weight as any ethnic minority. Also I should never have to suffer from positive discrimination, where for example quotas are made for the amount of non whites in employment. Jobs on merit not on ethnic identity.
Plus any society catering to minorities, like the Black Police Association, cannot ban me from joining. If any minority wants parity in all things with me, then I should have parity with them. That is what I am saying.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 15:57:06 GMT
Same with wanting to be equal to a women, you should have the opportunity of being a woman for some length of time, especially a woman of color without much money. You'll be singing a different tune by the end of your time. And the same goes for women. I've always said a woman should be treated as equally as a man - not that a man should suffer the disadvantages of a female. They should have their disadvantages wiped out. But if that is so, then it is parity in all things, women or ethnic minorities cannot cherry pick the good bits.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 16:07:18 GMT
YOU being a white male are already a 'winner', you haven't had to fight to be at the top of the heap. Minorities and women have had to fight tooth and nail just to get this far, and really, it's not that far at all. It's still a very uphill battle. I think you don't fully realized just how lucky you are and what you have. None of this was earned by you, you were born into it, you've had it easy simply by being born into your gender and your race. You're pointing out the obvious there. Where have I ever denied it? The weird thing is, you talk down about other races and women (not only on this thread but I've seen it on other threads too), Where? It's easy to cast that around. It's like me saying that you've often said disparaging things about my family and/or often talked down to males or whites? If you want to read true 'talking down to' then you should return and read a lot of what goldenoldie used to say. Easy to say but not exactly accurate. but yet you have a family of color and a wife who is the breadwinner and someone who is high up in her ladder and profession from what I can understand. So you don't think that I am closer to a lot of problems than a white man with a white family stuck in a dead end job in the UK? Obviously not. Well I'd like to offer a thought that I may well understand better than most - but you will never accept that. Ok, don't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 16:19:55 GMT
Okay I get you. You think minorities and women should be lifted up to the same status and privileges as a white male? And how do you suggest that's to be achieved? That's where measures such as job quotas are there. Otherwise these disadvantaged people would not have a say. Or perhaps you think that all of a sudden employers will become color blind and overlook disabilities etc? I don't think so. That is not realistic at all.
Also do you know that even with all these affirmative measures in place employers can easily find ways to side-step and give the job to who they want? And this does happen, often. Bottom line is it's a hard, uphill struggle for minorities living in white counties. Try and understand that. If you want to live in a fair country and not be ashamed of it, then something, something real and positive has to be done to change things.
And you want what out of this? what good things exactly are women cherry picking that you want for yourself?
There is nothing wrong with setting up things to help the disadvantaged. I know that Unemployed Youth have special programs to help them along and help them find work. As do other groups of people, which have nothing to do with color or race. If these and similar programs were scrapped, we'd be going backwards not forwards.
For years and years the most qualified people of color could not get a job. Doctors were (and maybe still are) working as taxi drivers and laborers. Things have not changed that much, nor have they suddenly become more fair and right, they have not. It's still very much, much harder for a person of color to be selected for the job, no matter what their qualifications may be. And despite what kind of programs the government puts out.
Yes, they should. But measures have to put in place in order for that to happen. Positive measures. Otherwise we're all just talking out of ass and living in gaga land pretending all is well.
Regarding your last post. You're an expert at contradicting yourself, and then going back on your words. I wouldn't bring you personally into it, if you had not done the same. You can't have it both ways.
You mention Goldie, I don't know what she has to do with this thread. All I know is that you gave her as good as she gave you. She is a highly intelligent woman who says what is really on her mind. I can see how this would be upsetting to you. But you do the same thing, so can't really complain can you? Except being a male on a mostly female forum back then you got away with it and she he didn't.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 17:27:59 GMT
In your first five paragraphs you've mentioned the injustices again. I don't think you need to any more. Every time you have I've acknowledged that is is true. How many more times do I need to?
The third paragraph though - "what good things exactly are women cherry picking that you want for yourself?" - I didn't say that women ARE cherry picking. I said - "But if that is so, then it is parity in all things, women or ethnic minorities cannot cherry pick the good bits." That means in the future if they get equality, not now. There is a difference. And some of the good bits are, again as I've said before, retirement age, maternity leave, exemption from certain jobs and some front line duties in the military for example. If you want to be equal then there is no discrimination at all for anything, ever.
You say, "You're an expert at contradicting yourself, and then going back on your words. " Huh?
The mention of Goldie was obvious and as stated. You said I 'talked down' and I said "If you want to read true 'talking down to' then you should return and read a lot of what goldenoldie used to say." Meaning nothing you think I've said compares to her in full swing. It was only just up the page. Wasn't it clear enough?
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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 17:31:32 GMT
You're spending a lot of time repeating yourself and the same points. To reply I have to do the same. Have you got anything new to say to save us both the trouble?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 17:40:18 GMT
Me repeating myself? If you say so. But so do you. Just want to make sure you get it, as at times you don't seem to. Or you say one thing and then something different. As is/has always been your way.
I always liked Goldie, probably for the same qualities/reasons that you found her annoying I'm sure. I never thought she talked down to anyone, in fact I thought she always liked you a great deal. I'm sure you didn't see it that way though. And of course some on that forum would not want you to see it that way, for reasons of their own. Goldie spoke her mind, but she was honest without being nasty, a good quality in my opinion. But not one everyone can handle I'm sure.
Anyway, before this thread becomes nothing but personal attacks, bringing in conversations from months/years gone by and so becomes irrelevant. I'm out of here. Besides I have to pack and get ready to leave.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 22, 2011 17:58:54 GMT
Goldie honest without being nasty? You jest and clearly misunderstood her posts.
Anyway, have a good trip.
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Post by hwinpp on Mar 23, 2011 4:50:32 GMT
hwinpp - being an Asian, do you have nothing more to say apart from a few jokes that having nothing much to do with the video? Are you not offended in the least by the video? I'm just curious? Perhaps I'm just not as smart as the above few posters and don't know that the new 'thing' to do is just joke it all off? Make light of it. See it as entertainment even. I guess that's easy to do if you are white and know will never have to personally confront the issues. Not very admirable though. ... I didn't comment on the video because I'm not that concerned with what this one girl is saying. What I'd have commented about was the language she used, how she said it. But I won't here. I've now seen some other retorts by Asians. They're just as bad as she is. This kind of stuff just isn't on my radar. I come accross racism on a daily basis here in Cambodia, against all foreigners, both non Cambodian Asians as well as Europeans and Africans. Some I laugh off, actually most, but some things rile me and I take it up with whoever shows it. Of course then I'm considered the racist for not respecting what they consider Asian values/ customs/ traditions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 7:49:00 GMT
Apparently, in the UK it is completely illegal to restrict any employment advert to a specific gender. I read that some places like bars just say things like "serving person required - must look good in miniskirt" to give people an idea at who has a chance at the job.
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Post by hwinpp on Mar 23, 2011 8:14:02 GMT
Much more blatantly sexist job offers here.
Yes, I understand this isn't a sexist one, but can't they just advertise for a waitress?
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Post by bjd on Mar 23, 2011 8:26:46 GMT
In Canada you are not allowed to specify sex or age, I believe. People were shocked when I told them French ads often asked for photographs, at least they used to until quite recently.
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Post by hwinpp on Mar 23, 2011 8:45:47 GMT
Here every CV must have a photograph.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 10:01:35 GMT
An interesting thing about the French labour code is that the courts uphold employees who need to lie when the employer asks illegal questions (for example, along the lines of "we don't hire Jews" or "you're not planning on getting pregnant, are you?").
As to why anybody would want to work for such a company, times are hard. Some people need a job so badly that they prefer to give the desired reply to get the job.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 10:17:44 GMT
When I worked in San Francisco my employer wanted to set on a local person and initially was surprised at the restrictions on what could be said in the advert. But he then got a real shock when he began to receive CV's. There was no identifying information on them at all, other than a name. He did ring up several applicants and naively asked them to supply more information, like an age, to get a feel for the person. They refused.
In Germany I noticed they used to have few gender neutral adverts, like asking for bar staff. They would ask for a 'waiter/ess' (Kellner/in or Kellner/Kellnerin).
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Post by hwinpp on Mar 23, 2011 10:32:12 GMT
Yes, it's a terrible usage I find, especially when the PMs (all since Kohl) address us as 'Liebe Buergerinnen und Buerger...
But I think there's a thread on that somewhere else.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 10:36:35 GMT
And that's another thing that seems to be stretching to the sometimes ridiculous - the elimination of gender, usually in titles. For example, "John Smith will be the Chair today".
What I need to hear from a German woman (or probably also Swiss) is to why in Germany there is very little of this neutrality. Why virtually every job title I've seen you can identify the sex of the person, e.g. Arzt/Ärztin (male/female doctor). Are German women not so fanatical with equality? Or do they celebrate the fact that they are women by staying different and identifiable?
Kerouac or any French speakers - in French? As per the USA/UK or more as Germany? Any other speakers of a language other than that - has gender identity been eliminated or fast on it's way to being? If not, why not?
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 10:39:52 GMT
Has this been covered before than hwinpp? I've not seen the thread you refer to and initially can't find it using Buergerinnen/Buerger to search on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 10:59:15 GMT
The gender identity is going both ways in France. On one had, many women are demanding to be called Mme. la Ministre or Mme. la Juge when official usage would impose le, no matter what the sex of the person. On the other hand, some old feminine words have been abandoned because they don't sound as good as the male version: la doctoresse, la mairesse...
Masculine words like auteur, ingénieur are becoming auteure, ingénieure when necessary, so the general trend is nevertheless to create equal but feminine words in the language.
In a gender based language, I don't really see any other way. No actress in France would ever want to be called an actor, as is often done now in English.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 11:34:45 GMT
I tend to think the usage of der/die in German in those circumstances hasn't altered at all. But my German isn't good enough to know if there are (as in the French then) titles that would have been purely male and now females are changing them. I think not but I can easily stand corrected.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 11:39:00 GMT
You may have hit the nail on the head there before we go any further. The gender based languages like French and German may well have resisted neutrality titles, whereas English would fall more easily to it. Yet I'd still be interested to know if women in those countries accept the difference quite easily or are gnashing their teeth.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 23, 2011 19:39:00 GMT
Here every CV must have a photograph. Makes sense. Would spare many people the trouble of the interview before their CV is chucked in the bin I reckon.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 23, 2011 19:44:16 GMT
An interesting thing about the French labour code is that the courts uphold employees who need to lie when the employer asks illegal questions (for example, along the lines of "we don't hire Jews" or "you're not planning on getting pregnant, are you?"). I used to think lying was pretty much categorically wrong. I've since adopted the view that one is perfectly entitled to lie when asked questions that are none of the asker's damn business, which isn't an infrequent occurrence. In fact in those situations, lying may actually be the ethically preferable course. Depending on the situation and the lie naturally.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 19:46:53 GMT
It is indeed foolish to imagine that a lot of people are not eliminated the moment that they are seen. At the same time, not knowing what somebody looks like does allow a lot of people to progress one step farther than many would achieve otherwise.
France is trying to imagine the "nameless CV" but it is quite difficult to put into place. However, it would give an additional chance to people called Ahmed Mustapha when Thomas Martin has applied for the same job.
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Post by fumobici on Mar 23, 2011 19:47:44 GMT
of a language other than that - has gender identity been eliminated or fast on it's way to being? If not, why not? Italian is inching (2.54cm ing?) towards gender neutrality in job descriptions but there's a lot of work left to do before anything like gender neutrality is achieved. Of course gendered languages complicate the process and Italy is a very sexist place besides.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 19:59:26 GMT
Berlusconi isn't sexist, is he?
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Post by fumobici on Mar 23, 2011 20:12:39 GMT
Berlusconi isn't sexist, is he? ;D Watch Italian TV, it's actually shocking how objectified women are commonly portrayed there. Even "serious" news readers often have half their tits falling out of their top.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 20:35:42 GMT
Do they? I might not spend much time on here whilst I closely investigate this.
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Post by onlymark on Mar 23, 2011 20:47:56 GMT
One small thing on a personal note. If anyone reads through this thread in its entirety you may be a little surprised at the following. On the Thorn Tree forum (many of you are still on it or remember it or know of it?) I've just this last day been exchanging posts with someone who joined, as I did, close to its inception. He could be classed as an 'old stager' who gave much wise information. But then he left for various reasons only to pop in from time to time and very infrequent intervals. Of course the past always seems better than it is now.
We were reminiscing, as you do naturally, as to how things have changed over time and his earlier disappearance due to frustration as to how there was a deterioration in various things on the forum. He is aware that I've more or less stuck with it over the years. He said -
Mark, we couldn't all be like you. We tried to adjust to the new TT by being polite, helpful and informative but it was no good. To be honest many of us lacked your social skills, if I had ever run an overlander it would have ended with my driving slowly in the night over each tent in turn. It is good that you are still here, perhaps they saved the best till last.
See, I can play nice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 21:17:53 GMT
I'm sure that you can. But all of us would like to drive slowly over certain tents.
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