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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 17:59:58 GMT
Today there was a "tsunami" in France, due to the arrest of "DSK" (as we call him) for a sexual assault in New York City.
Just try to imagine: he is the most popular politician in France, considered to be a shoo-in for next year's presidential election (60%+), and he was arrested on an Air France flight, just before take off, trying to flee the United States.
Nobody knows what to think for the moment. The implications are so ENORMOUS that it is hard not to imagine some sort of conspiracy. He reputedly pounced on a chambermaid and forced her to perform fellatio -- in the most expensive suite of the hotel.
Frankly, I have never liked DSK, and I should be rejoicing in this event, because I had no desire for him to become president next year. And just like every other male politician in France, he has a major problem in his trousers. He already had problems a couple of years ago when an affair was revealed with a Hungarian aide, but since she got no promotion from it, the subject was dropped.
But such a case seems so incredible that Hollywood would have rejected the extravagance of such a scenario. Like everybody else, I want to know what really happened and yet I think that we will never really know.
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Post by bixaorellana on May 15, 2011 18:07:51 GMT
Just linking one of the stories here, with no idea if it's a reliable source or not. Anyway -- what was a Socialist doing in a $3,000 a night suite? "They" say that many politicians are so dazzled by their own perceived importance that they no longer realize that regular rules of conduct still apply to them. "They" also say that as a group, politicians tend to be belt-notchers. Certainly I can think of many examples in American politics where grotesquely bad judgment took over when it came to sexual high-jinks. The allegation of out and out rape, though, is what makes this incidence so extremely shocking.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 18:51:35 GMT
His lifestyle is one of the reasons that I have never liked him. There is no reason for a high placed Socialist to live like a poor person, but there are certainly certain limits that should be applied.
Your linked article is as reliable as any other article that I have read. What will be interesting (and probably disgusting) will be what the spin doctors will be saying over the next few days.
Loose sexual mores have always been a part of French politics, and almost a source of pride compared to the puritan countries. The last French president who didn't have a "reputation" was De Gaulle -- who left power in 1969. Since then, a sexual reputation has almost been obligatory for French presidents and their wives.
However, "sexual aggression" is not part of what is accepted, and that's what makes the current situation so disturbing.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 21:16:23 GMT
Tomorrow morning at the office, it is going to be the ONLY subject of conversation, and I am already fearing it.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 21:21:52 GMT
With him or without him, the Socialist party will not make it to the second round of the presidential election anyway. Ségolène Royale (Socialist party) wants to be president so bad that she will never accept a defeat in the primaries. If she loses, which is very likely, she will leave the Socialist party to run for the presidential election on her own. Obviously she doesn't have the slightest chance to win but the few percents of voters that she will draw from the Socialist party will be enough to make it lose the first round, leaving us with Marine Le Pen (National Front) against Sarkozy at the second round.
There is no way I will vote for either of these two.
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Post by mich64 on May 15, 2011 21:56:41 GMT
If the allegations regarding this individual are true then I hope he receives the full penalty. Unfortunately, it will probably take a long time to determine if the allegations are true. Hopefully clear evidence exists one way or the other.
If true, the terror this person felt and the trauma she will go through for who knows how long? All she did was go to work, you think you would at least be safe at work. I feel sadness for this woman, she will never be the same again.
I guess I will have to watch the stock market tomorrow to see what his actions cause there as well.
Mich
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Post by bjd on May 16, 2011 7:02:27 GMT
You guys are better informed than I am -- There was no mention of rape, was there? Just "sexual acts" from what I heard and read. Of course, that's all we are going to get as news for a while.
Conspiracy theories about set-ups are bound to come up. I don't usually believe them, but this just really sounds strange.
DSK was in New York working for the IMF, not as a Socialist. Hence the $3,000 hotel room. You expect him to stay in a motel in New Jersey?
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Post by hwinpp on May 16, 2011 8:27:21 GMT
The people at the reception desk in New Jersey probably wouldn't have known him from Adam, he could probably have checked in as John Smith
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 9:54:18 GMT
Having grown up in a mostly American environment, I must admit that I continue to be surprised by French attitudes about certain things. Basically, just about all of the women at the office reacted with "What's the big deal with non consensual fellatio? It's not as though he raped her." They are absolutely not defending him, but they just don't put it in the same category.
I remember back when Bill Clinton was saying "I did not have sex with that woman," even my mother completely agreed, to the surprise of my father and me.
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Post by bjd on May 16, 2011 10:12:58 GMT
I just heard an interview with Eva Joly, the magistrate/Green Party primary candidate. She was explaining the differences in the way it would be handled in France vs the way it is being done in the States. Particularly the fact that if DSK pleads not guilty, as he is allegedly doing, and is convicted, he would be sentenced to the maximum -- 26 years. That does seem harsh for non-consensual fellatio!
She said the maximum term in France would be 15. She also said that in France, it's up to the prosecution to prove what he did, whereas in the States, it's up to the defence lawyer to prove he didn't.
As I suspected, this business has dominated just about everything else on the news here.
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Post by hwinpp on May 16, 2011 10:49:35 GMT
Is it true, that the defence has to prove an alleged suspect didn't do it? I can't believe that.
Isn't it in American movies that I always see the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt etc., etc....?
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Post by bjd on May 16, 2011 11:33:53 GMT
I found it odd too, but that's what she said. Maybe someone with US legal knowledge could confirm or deny.
We talked about it at lunchtime and that would certainly explain the convictions and high sentencing of people whose defence lawyers fell asleep or didn't do their jobs properly.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 14:31:44 GMT
Curiouser and curiouser. DSK is apparently pleading innocent because he claims that he was having lunch with his daughter in a restaurant at the time of the alleged attack. Does he have an evil twin?
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Post by mich64 on May 16, 2011 14:33:49 GMT
My understanding is the US State Prosecution must prove, without a doubt, that the accused individual is guilty of the crimes he is charged with. It is the duty of the Defense Lawyers to provide the best defense to those charges.
Due to the fact that the woman claims she was attacked and dragged down a hallway in the suite, dragged into a bathroom, forced to perform a sexual act is what makes this not a consensual situation and therefore, if true, a serious crime. Mich
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Post by onlymark on May 16, 2011 16:19:17 GMT
Since The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on the 1 May 2004 oral penetration is classed and prosecuted as rape in the UK. The maximum sentence is life imprisonment but average sentence is four years.
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Post by mich64 on May 16, 2011 17:00:33 GMT
Since she went for help right after the alledged attack, and was taken immediately to a hospital by the Police where they could perform a sexual attack exam, it will not matter who vouches for him with an alibi.
If the exam proves an attack he will face prosecution, no matter who he is. If the exam proves attack and there is DNA evidence, his Defense Lawyers are going to have a difficult time proving his innocence. If he is guilty of this, it is disgusting that he would involve his daughter in a lie to protect himself. Mich
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 20:49:10 GMT
As expected, speculation went wild today at the office as to what might have happened.
One theory was that DSK was a regular for sexual services at the hotel, perhaps with a scenario along the lines of "the maid walks in and can't resist me." But what if the wrong maid shows up for some reason?
I did learn what the official jargon is in 5-star hotels for male (or female) clients requesting "company" for the night. Apparently, it is called "asking for an extra pillow." That's how the staff are supposed to refer to it to each other.
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Post by onlymark on May 16, 2011 21:33:05 GMT
And how did you happen to learn that then?
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Post by bixaorellana on May 16, 2011 21:40:09 GMT
What Mich says in #13 about the US legal system is correct. 26 years. That does seem harsh for non-consensual fellatio! You're kidding, right? It's rape & there is no other way of looking at it. And anyone capable of doing that to another human being should be locked up, whether in a prison or a mental hospital. I totally agree with Mich in #5. If the allegations are true, something has been done to the victim that is traumatic enough to change her forever.
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Post by hwinpp on May 17, 2011 3:43:16 GMT
True. I see it that way as well.
Have read a couple of threads trying to suggest Sarko is behind it but I'd think not granting bail means there's some clear cut evidence.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 5:02:40 GMT
Some people appear to be easily traumatized. I'm sure that millions of women have been involved in non consensual fellatio and most of them have taken care of the problem with a toothbrush and toothpaste.
I don't want to sound callous, but when I was mugged, had the shit beaten out of me and spent a week in the hospital, I was "traumatized" for maybe a couple of weeks and skittish about people walking too close to me for 6 months. If my attackers had been arrested, and I had been asked what sort of prison sentence they deserved, I probably would have said something along the line of 3 months.
People who are convicted of murder often spend only about 15 years in prison, depending on the context of the case.
Because of his power and status, I do indeed believe that DSK should be punished more severely than Joe down at the bar who had one too many and forced Mary the waitress to do something when he cornered her in the restroom, but frankly I just will not consider fellatio to be a worse crime than murder or embezzlement of millions.
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Post by bjd on May 17, 2011 7:07:45 GMT
People who are convicted of murder often spend only about 15 years in prison, depending on the context of the case. Because of his power and status, I do indeed believe that DSK should be punished more severely than Joe down at the bar who had one too many and forced Mary the waitress to do something when he cornered her in the restroom, but frankly I just will not consider fellatio to be a worse crime than murder or embezzlement of millions. I agree with Kerouac. Not that he should be treated more severely than Joe down at the bar, but that they should be treated the same. DSK just has a lot more to lose from the publicity because of his position, so equal legal treatment would seem harsher. Anyway, so far he hasn't been proved guilty, only been treated as being guilty. On the radio here today, there was much comment about the US justice system, the "perp walk" of someone who has been accused but not convicted. Since legal reforms in France in 2002, people are presumed innocent and therefore things like perp walks and TV cameras in the courtroom about bail hearings are not allowed. I can only assume that people like DSK and Bill Clinton may be smart in some things but don't have the brains to keep their pants zipped when they should.
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Post by bjd on May 17, 2011 7:09:07 GMT
HW, the not granting bail was justified by him being a "flight risk", since France doesn't have an extradition treaty with the States.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 8:07:12 GMT
In France, you cannot publish photographs of a "suspect" wearing handcuffs -- only convicted criminals can be shown that way.
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Post by mich64 on May 17, 2011 14:41:23 GMT
In Canada we also publish pictures of people in handcuffs prior to trials. I do not agree with this. I would support change to this. You cannot take these images back when the resolution is the person was innocent.
The early reports being released are that there is evidence proving the claims of the woman who alledges she was attacked, this along with the flight risk is why DKS is being held. I also do not think that these statements should be released or reported on. It should be confidential until the accused is brought to trial as it provides opinions to possible jurors and is unfair to the defense of the accused.
Mich
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 14:56:05 GMT
Yes -- as you can imagine, the newspapers in France are wildly speculating about every possible thing, using any little scrap of information or misinformation that turns up. While it is obviously impossible to prevent this affair from becoming a ridiculous media circus, they need to slam the door shut on a lot of the investigation. Only the experts should have access to many of these details.
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Post by bjd on May 17, 2011 14:56:50 GMT
I heard today that on Friday, DSK would face a grand jury (23 New Yorkers in this case) who would listen to the accusation and defence and decide whether there should be a trial.
Meanwhile, he is being held in "one of America's most notorious prisons" (BBC).
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Post by mich64 on May 17, 2011 15:29:35 GMT
Yes, I have just heard the same report. A Grand Jury is a panel of people selected to hear evidence of the crime against the Defendant. This Jury is provided with the evidence that has been proven thus far and then decide if the Prosecution has enough just cause to put the Defendant on Trial for the charges.
They have also just reported that he has now changed his defense to say that the sex was consensual, therefore, so far he has lied about having lunch with his daughter.
Also, the prison is notorious, Riker's Island. Mich
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Post by bixaorellana on May 17, 2011 16:45:56 GMT
I am not a person who believes that punitive measures fix anything or "teach people a lesson". But long-term traumatic effects to the victim aside, a person who rapes or who "beats the shit" out of someone else is profoundly disturbed. However it's effected, the rest of society needs to be protected from that person. Re: Riker's Island -- yes, it's notorious for various scandals, but it's a complex of ten jails, some of which are holding facilities for people awaiting trial. I agree about details in a case being kept out of the news. It creates a bizarre situation wherein the only untainted jurors who can be found would be those who pay no attention to any news or who are lying about that. I'm sure that millions of women have been involved in non consensual fellatio and most of them have taken care of the problem with a toothbrush and toothpaste. Yes, that does sound very callous and I think many people -- not just women -- might even consider forced fellatio worse than "conventional" rape.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 17:01:13 GMT
That would be very strange indeed. But then again, there are a lot of women who consider themselves to be virgins if they only have anal sex.
Strangely enough, in French law, rape includes non consensual fellatio. In the United States, it only concerns vaginal sex. So in France, DSK could be charged with rape. In NYC, he can only be charged with attempted rape.
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