Tottenham riots

[Deleted]

The images of north London over the weekend were very impressive, but to a lot of us, they were just images. Obviously, we have 'police incidents' setting off riots or at least car burnings in France regularly, but there is usually a story behind the events.

Can anybody fill me in one what is really happening? It seems to be quite an impoverished ethnically mixed area, but that's not enough to make people go wild.

I am not at all surprised by the looting though -- there are so many 'inaccessible' consumer goods on display everywhere constantly that I understand young (and not so young) hotheads having as first priority "let's help ourselves to some of the good stuff."

Not only is this deplorable, but it masks the social and political issues which are the ones that should be discussed.

[auntieannie]

I am not sure myself what is happening. part of it is the political background in the UK, but wow... what is it going to achieve? I cannot understand what people hope to do when destroying property.

[Deleted]

Looks like the disturbances spread to a few other areas last night. Unfortunately, destroying property is one of the only ways to get "sufficient" media attention, even if it is negative attention. What is really warped is that it is easier to burn your own neighbourhood than to go to the neighbourhood of the "guilty" to punish them -- so these people end up punishing themselves.

In France, burned cars are no longer reported on the news so the number of burned cars has dropped dramatically. But you can't really not report buildings going up in flames along with buses and police cars.

[mickthecactus]

I know the areas well, having worked in Tottenham and my sister lived in Enfield for many years. Tottenham is a deprived area but to torch your own buildings is pointless and just makes it even worse.

A guy though to be an armed drug dealer was shot in Tottenham last Thursday by the police. There was a peaceful protest which got completely out of hand. Became an excuse to loot shops. Mostly kids who fancied a bit of action on a summer evening. Never happens in January.

[Deleted]

I know they were hoping that last night's drenching rains would calm things, but apparently the rain was not cold enough.

I thought this article from The Guardian had a very interesting take on events instead of the usual stuff that we read. Of course the author seems to be an art reporter rather than being specialised in social commentary.

[bjd]

I agree that the Guardian article seems beside the point. Comparing the riots to science fiction is as useless as he claims comparing them to Brixton is.

[Deleted]

I was just relieved to read something different from the usual "this is terrible -- why do these people do this -- it should be stopped -- they're only hurting themselves -- the police must put an end to it" which is about level zero in terms of analysis.

Until people find new ways to look at our crumbling civilisation, there is no stopping the deterioration. The article put the interesting idea in my head that some of these young people are indeed acting out a visual fantasy from movies and video games and the fact that it is real makes it much more exciting. If these are the only visions that the entertainment industry is giving this segment of society, it is a bit simplistic to say that it is all because of drug dealers or insufficient jobs.

[Deleted]

It appears that the situation is deteriorating and maybe even spreading to Birmingham.

I am reminded of the images of Great Britain shown in A Clockwork Orange (1971 in terms of the film).

And therefore what astonishes me is how writers and film makers from 40 years ago could get this feel for the evolution of modern Britain. (Naturally I have seen a number of other films -- not science fiction at all -- depicting this incredible crumbling of English society.) Is there really some sort of bad seed at work, or is it just a coincidence? And how can it be stopped?

[Deleted]

[auntieannie]

yes, it is spreading everywhere. If you listen to the music of "The Clash" - or even just read their lyrics... music 30 years old totally captures what is happening. almost every line of their songs (thinking of London calling, London's burning, white riot, police & thieves, ...)

[Deleted]

Absolutely. And I am watching the government officials on television saying "We are against violence, we are against thuggery." Well, basically, who isn't? Is that really all they have to say about the events?

[lola]

Thanks, Kerouac and Auntieannie.

I sympathize with government officials who don't quite know what to say about all this, though. When I was in London a couple of years ago I was impressed by how those millions of diverse people moving around in close quarters managed to go about their lives so peaceably. To me it is remarkable how well it usually works.

[bjd]

I wasn't listening to those lyrics 30 years ago, but what this reminds me of is a book called Watching the English: the Hidden Rules of English Behaviour by Kate Fox. She is a sociologist and talks about how the striking things about the English (humour, politeness, etc) developed to constrain a people with tendencies to violence (hooliganism, binge drinking, blood sports in the old days).

Add to this a highly unequal society (even more so since the Thatcher era), immigration, a bad economic period with even greater problems caused by current Conservative budget reductions and the result is not a big surprise. All it needed was a spark to set it off -- justified or not.

The government response is, as usual and as everywhere in similar circumstances, useless. I had rather liked Nick Clegg before -- he looks like he came out of the same cookie-cutter as Cameron and Osborne -- but has a more interesting background. But in the interview I saw with him yesterday, he sounded completely out of it. "We may all be on holiday but all the ministers are talking to each other."

[Deleted]

Home Secretary Theresa May this morning appeared to rule out bringing in the Army and using water cannon. She told BBC Breakfast: 'The way we police is by consent.'
Speaking on BBC Breakfast, Mrs May appeared to rule out bringing in the Army and using water cannon, saying: 'The way we police is by consent.'
'British policing has always meant and always depended on the support of local communities and that's what we need now,' she said.
She told Sky News the capital needed 'robust policing' - and rejected suggestions that police budget cutting had any impact on violence.
'Don't let police budgets be used as an excuse for what is going on on our streets is sheer criminality and nothing else.'

I have no idea what this woman is trying to say.

[mickthecactus]

Indeed - I listened to her live on the radio and she could not answer one question.

I'm afraid it really does need the army - a squad of paras might be interesting.

[tod2]

I watched Ms. May try desperately to convince the public that her soft approach is the way. Even Eamon Holmes had to laugh!

I hope Cameron gets really tough and brings out the big guns. Anything less with more pillaging and uncontrolled rampaging will not make him look good. Why all this debate about bringing in the Army? For goodness sake peoples livelihoods are going up in smoke! Show some balls and take the situation by the scruff and put an end to it!

We have a TV add which comes on speaking about - Quote:"What's all this adrenalin malarkey? No doubt to impress their friends! In my day you would cop a clip around the ear hole from the local Bobby!"Unquote.

Well the Bobby's are getting a good going over by these louts because like here in South Africa, there is absolutely no respect for the law, or peoples property mainly because the consequences are no big deal.

[Deleted]

Does the UK have an official riot squad like the CRS (Compagnie Républicaine de Sécurité) in France? They are a division of the national police with the mission of "maintaining and restoring order" and they generally mean business when they arrive with their robocop outfits. I guess not, or we would have heard about them.

Luckily, we don't have riots every day, or even demonstrations (where they are always present as well), so at other times they do highway patrol missions, mountain rescue and lifeguarding on the beaches.

[hwinpp]

Looks like an escalation of the annual May party in Berlin. Just as senseless. Just as irritating.

[tod2]

Well the 'thieves' will probably take the night off knowing that the amount of police on the streets is significantly increased in London at least.
I keep thinking - where are the parents left in all this? Have they turned their off-spring into a sub-culture of useless pond-scum? Are they themselves a drain on society by being professionally on the dole? And most of all - has Britain been lead into a deep pit of trashy society because it has been so kind by supporting the lazy, and both lenient on crime and a longstanding tolerance of foreign illegals.

I am so sad for the law-abiding Brit right now. So sad for those who have had their livelyhood ripped out from under them and especially for those who managed to espcape with their lives - be it in tatters.

[bjd]

The girls talking in this BBC video www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424 are looking forward to more violence. They claim they are against the "rich" people who own businesses in the neighbourhood.

[cheerypeabrain]

It's frustrating that the reporting of these incidents seems to be escalating things even more...the newspapers that only a few days ago were in danger of being swamped by the public disaproval of their own behaviour...are fanning the flames as usual...

As a middle aged, middle class English person I am absolutely disgusted, but don't think that anything will be done. The news is full of people talking about how 'Young People' are only reacting to the circumstances inflicted upon them. Bless....


Maybe an army of angry, middle aged women could sort the little dears out....if only GET IN YOUR ROOM and NO SUPPER...sort of thing...Unfortunately we no longer have any control of our young... there are some rather worrying groups of vigilantes springing up in London...talking of stopping the looting, but one wonders about their agenda too.

[Deleted]

Seem as though things are calmer tonight, except maybe in Manchester.

But the night is young.

[imec]

I didn't even know they played hockey in the U.K....

[lola]

And yet I can see making numbskull statements like those girls', when I was maybe 19. I hope not while swigging stolen rosé, but wouldn't have put it entirely past that edition of my deluded young self.

[fumobici]

chaplainmediacity.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/salford-riots/

[lagatta]

The other thing that is striking is how "apolitical" the English riots are, unlike recent actions by disaffected youth in Greece, Spain or even Israel, as well as in other Middle Eastern - and North African - countries.

There is a horrific divide for a modern western country between extreme wealth and marginalisation in Britain, but the rioters seem to be hurting their own communities and to a great extent small businesses run by hard-working immigrants. It is kind of sad.

Tod, where I disagree with you is about the lazy. Lots of people find themselves jobless and hopeless for no fault of their own. There are lazy, useless people in all classes of society.

[lola]

Too true, lagatta.

Just excellent, fumobici. Thank you for that.

[Deleted]

I was reading some articles comparing the English events with the last round of French riots, and one major oddity that was pointed out is that in France there was almost no looting -- the rioters chose instead to burn buses, schools, libraries and community centres, which is perhaps a more extreme form of self punishment.

The Independent also has this to say: The experience of the French authorities offers some lessons to the British Government. And the biggest is, perhaps, an unpalatable one. Confrontation is counter-productive. Riots, as an outpouring of urban anger, are best left to burn themselves out. On the other hand, curfews do help by giving the weapon of control to parents and community leaders.

The French riots provoked a great deal of schadenfreude in the Anglo-Saxon press at the time. They were portrayed as the defeat of an uncompromisingly mono-cultural French approach to immigration. They were even, quite wrongly, described as a kind of Islamist intifada.

[tod2]

Maybe so Lagatta, but then why are so many 'imports' taking the jobs like hotel cleaners, kitchen help,
street cleaning and many many jobs that are available but it seems the Brits deem that kind of work beneath them. I have yet to come across an English person making up my room at a hotel.....

Believe me I have great sympathy for the person who has been retrenched, through no fault of their own as you say.
This morning they talked about parenting - the fact that little children as young as 9yrs old are out on the streets causing mayhem. I bet they come home and mummy gets their "tea" ready like they've been really good little kids even though they're hot and sweaty and reeking of smoke.
A clip round the ear hole from the local Bobby is light years away......

[auntieannie]

Fumo, I've nicked that.