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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 9:47:05 GMT
These events bring this song to mind,recorded many years ago.
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Post by tillystar on Aug 10, 2011 16:13:14 GMT
Do you really believe that? I keep hearing about these parents who let their kids get away with murder as though they are slightly indugent parents, a little lazy. Or do you think it is more likely they don’t have “parents”, that they come from broken homes where there is no guidance, where the parents are heavy drug users who don’t notice where their kids are, where they’ve not had a hot meal in months, if ever, and where they don’t have a proper bed to sleep in never mind a HD TV?
Where they’ve learnt how to be aprt of an underground community to survive where taking what you can get, when you can get it, is the only way to survive? Where you role models are local drug dealers and you grow up seeing violence is the way to get what what you need?
I am not trying to justify their actions, but this is far closer to reality for many than little 9 and 10 yr old from nice families popping out to pilfer a telly behind mummy's back.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 16:55:02 GMT
I did notice one (sensationalist) article -- maybe in the Sun or the Mirror -- with a headline like "Parents drive kids home after looting." I confess I did not read the article.
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Post by tod2 on Aug 10, 2011 17:02:34 GMT
I absolutely agree with you Tillystar! I am sure there are many that have no family background of any sort but I am also absolutely sure there are going to be many many tears shed by parents when that knock on their door comes. I just hope they don't try and make excuses for the terryfying havoc these scumbags have unleashed on Great Britain. They have got to deal with the culprits severely and put the GREAT back into Britain.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 10, 2011 20:42:07 GMT
I'm just tired of it...it's happened before and it will happen again. The article posted by the priest pretty much sums up how the majority of us feel. Tomorrow night I'm working until 11pm at the local city hospital and I've told my old man that if anything kicks off I'll stay at work and make my way home in the morning...don't want him driving into anything when he comes to pick me up... The idiotic, thoughtlesss thugs causing all this trouble are just making things worse for the majority of law abiding citizens. Even if they are the underclass, unemployed and with no prospects..they should still be held accountable...trouble is they won't be. Anyway, my OH and 2 sons are unemployed and they don't go out trashing the neighbourhood!....we live on flumpence a week because I'm the only one working atm....I just try to get as much overtime as possible and we make do. How DARE they trash my beautiful city.
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Post by bjd on Aug 11, 2011 6:30:05 GMT
In yesterday's paper there was an article featuring a 19 year-old guy interviewed about his participation in the looting. He had stolen a fancy sweater and was wearing it in the picture. (I can't find the link to the online edition now). Anyway, he admitted he had no job, had quit school at 15, only learned to read 3 years ago and spent most of his time watching TV. He also has a welfare subsidy to live in his own apartment, and has £6000 in credit card debt. "Nobody has ever given me a chance." I was trying to figure out whether the readers were supposed to feel sorry for this idiot because nobody had ever given him a chance (certainly his excuse for everything, it couldn't be his fault that he was a useless layabout), or to make us feel like giving a swift kick in the rear end. I just found the article: www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10youth.html?scp=5&sq=Landon%20Thomas%20Jr&st=cse
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Post by hwinpp on Aug 11, 2011 12:12:52 GMT
What these "kids" need is a big dose of discipline.
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Post by auntieannie on Aug 11, 2011 12:31:41 GMT
I am not too worried about bringing the small time idiots to the court... there is no contingency for their situation just now. But I would happily participate in sorting the ones that organise the vans to pick looted goods up. Because they'll be the ones who will arrange the selling of these further along and they'll make money out of this mess. I want them in the shade.
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Post by myrt on Aug 16, 2011 6:42:37 GMT
It's all so very sad.......entirely predictable reactions by the politicians, squawking headlines in the red tops and very little sensible, thoughtful or helpful suggestions by anyone with any power to make a difference. The saddest thing I've heard in the aftermath is that the families of these stoopid adolescent idiots may well be flung out of their council homes or have their benefits stopped - how is that going to solve anything? More support, the opportunity for training and jobs and some decent funding to get these people assistance in rebuilding their homes and communities after decades of gradual deterioration mightbe more useful.. but what do I know? I live miles away from urban areas in an isolated, resources poor and second-home rich rural bit of Britain.........
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 16, 2011 20:38:39 GMT
Thing is...I criticise the politicians, grumble about the awful behaviour of the mob....but I haven't a clue how we realistically address the problems we have in our society.
ps....nice to see you Myrt dearie ;D
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Post by bixaorellana on Aug 16, 2011 21:36:40 GMT
What Cheery said! In yesterday's paper there was an article featuring a 19 year-old guy interviewed about his participation in the looting. ... he admitted he had no job, had quit school at 15, [highlight=Yellow]only learned to read 3 years ago[/highlight] and spent most of his time watching TV. He also has a welfare subsidy to live in his own apartment, and has �6000 in credit card debt. "Nobody has ever given me a chance." very little sensible, thoughtful or helpful suggestions by anyone with any power to make a difference. More support, the opportunity for training and jobs and some decent funding to get these people assistance in rebuilding their homes and communities after decades of gradual deterioration might be more useful. I'm putting these quotes together, as the anecdotal evidence of a young adult who effectively cannot function in modern society fits in well with the comments about what can be done to change that. Since I know pretty much nothing about English life, I can only liken the trouble-making underclass (as Cheery succinctly puts it) to many people who have grown up in some of the projects in the US, the products of several generations of welfare. The ways that young people coming out of that environment are different from the entire rest of society makes them virtually unemployable, due to an ingrained lack of focus, lack of enough education to figure out how to help themselves, plus an inability to present themselves articulately enough to convince an employer to give them a chance. The rest of us, whether rich, poor, or in-between, were at least able to make use of any educational tools that came our way, not to mention having solid role models within our "normal" communities. It's not so much the poverty of not having money that creates such disassociated youth, but the poverty of everything else that normally enriches our lives. Governments throw money at problem communities in much the way someone fleeing wolves throws back his gloves, coat, etc., & with much of the same lack of ultimate happy result. I'm not sure how it could be effected, but until the caring, productive people within those disenfranchised communities can be helped to create programs that might truly make a difference, I can't see how the problem will get any better.
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Post by hwinpp on Aug 17, 2011 8:08:18 GMT
It's a bit rich though to make the looting out to be some kind of political manifestation. An insult to everyone who has ever gone out to demonstrate. This was 'fun'. Nothing else. Same as it's 'fun' in Berlin every 1st May when the 'underprivileged' make their demonstration...
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Post by myrt on Aug 17, 2011 8:27:59 GMT
Thanks Cheery and Bixa There are many many people in communites all over the UK who have spend years voluntarily running youth centres, sports schemes, those with drugs-drink-mental health issues-care problems-family problems etc etc have been able to get assistance at many and varied centres but these schemes need financial support and trained staff and premises to operate from. The cuts in public spending have reduced the moneypot available to the extent that many have already had to close or are close to doing so. Just a small example - the community centre in the small market town where I used to run gardening for beginners classes is run by the local mayor (a wonderful and caring woman), the centre is the home of many small organisations across a spectrum of welfare based charities and is a drop-in centre for single parent families, the elderly, those with learning difficulties or serious long term disabilities and many other people besides. And it is struggling to stay open.....the vast majority of the people running it are volunteers. It's a fine example of the 'Big Society' this Government wants to happen. But without funding, without professional experienced staff it ain't going to happen.....and this situation is repeated over and over in every town and city in Britain. They are talking now about the convicted youths working in the Community Payback Scheme to make some reparation for the damage they have caused. A fine idea and IMO much better than putting these kids through the prison system. However I have worked with a group of Community Payback men and women in the Community Allotment scheme my gardening charity is involved in. They worked hard and did a good job building fences, compost bins, putting up polytunnels etc but the man in charge was exhausted - he hadn't had a holiday for years, his days off were cancelled at short notice regularly - because the funding for the Payback scheme is so woefully inadequate that there are not enough people to run it efficiently. I'm going on - sorry! But it makes me soooo cross that the invisible army of charity workers and volunteers are there, in place and want to do their thing..but they are disappearing at a rate of knots because there is no money to maintain their work, never mind extend it. Meanwhile the politicians (those fine upstanding men and women recently exposed as a bunch of cheats and thieves) are spouting contrived sound bites and meaningless blather, propping up the scandalous behaviour of banking sector to the tune of billions and billions whilst removing the financial support of all those organisations struggling to help people with debt, unemployment, illness and all the other associated problems caused by poverty and stress and despair.... The hypocrisy and double standards are breathtaking and it makes me sick. There are solutions. There are ways we can stop this terrible thing happening over and over but it involves a massive dose of reality from our politicians and the political and social will to really change our consumerist society from the ground up - education genuinely for all, a health system available to all, a possibility of employment and a society which sincerely values all its citizens - not just those with a vast bank balance, a shallow notoriety based on little of substance and the ability to bluster the most aggressively.. that might sound like idealistic tosh to most of you but I don't care. Something's got to change....somehow. I'm sure there was an element of 'fun' involved. I'm sure some of those, maybe most of those running riot were thugs and opportunist criminals. That's not really the point though..there were children out there doing such terrible things - and that's not right. Whatever we think of it all we can't just dismss it. It's not going to change just because the 'full weight of the law' (whatever that means) is thrown at these people. That won't stop other kids doing it, and it won't stop the truly scary disintegration of our society. Oh dear...sooo very sorry for ranting. I haven't been about for ages and then I do this! Shutting up now...... ;D
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Post by hwinpp on Aug 17, 2011 8:57:43 GMT
No worries about ranting, your's seems very civilized! Re the children who were involved, I place the blame squarely on the parents. What about those two or three guys of Pakistani origin that were driven over while protecting their property? Or the Malaysian guy who got helped up by a group of thugs and then robbed? Or the old man who was trying to put out a fire, got punched and has now died? Now that more info is available it looks like it might have been gangs who instigated it: www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23978680-gangs-at-centre-of-london-riots.do
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2011 9:06:15 GMT
Excellent explanation, myrt, and quite similar to what happened in France a few years ago. When Sarkozy arrived in power -- first as Minister of the Interior -- one of the first things he did was to disband the neighbourhood police forces, who had been placed in difficult areas to become part of the community and interact with the locals to help them rather than repress them. Sarkozy said "the role of the police is not to play football with unemployed youth!" Well he got it all wrong -- that is exactly the sort of thing we would like to see the police doing, and crime dropped considerably when there were community cops. Now when 'strange' police show up with their riot gear, their clubs and their tear gas, you can imagine the sort of reception that they receive.
And just like in Britain, a lot of youth centres were closed as funds got cut off for the various programmes. When such places were burned in the riots, it's because they were abandoned instead of being used.
I fear for us all if this new round of European belt tightening continues to cut off funds for the disadvantaged areas while rolling out the red carpet for banks and multinational corporations.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 17, 2011 17:09:08 GMT
Thank you for putting that so succinctly. Thing is, the politicians know this...they aren't stupid (!?) but they simply don't seem to care. They make noises about it but nothing positive is happening...hoards of people have lost their jobs in the recession, skilled workers and professionals. We do need a banking system, but isn't it supposed to support us? after all it was our funds that bailed them out last year. Nothing has changed. I feel impotent and downtrodden...and angry....very angry.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2011 17:34:43 GMT
Basically, they only listen to their rich friends because obviously they don't have any poor friends. I was reading on various sites that there was a certain amount of distress about the severity of certain verdicts, not to mention different levels -- one person got condemned severely for stealing some bottles of water, while another person only got one day in prison for taking expensive clothes.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 17, 2011 20:19:36 GMT
I think that the sensible thing to do is to make them work at repairing the damage, particularly the youngsters. Here in the East Midlands there are images of chilren as young as 11 breaking windows and stealing.
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Post by bjd on Aug 18, 2011 7:47:26 GMT
I agree with Cheery. No point in sending young kids or even young adults to prison. They will only get more bad ideas there. Let them indeed work at repairing the damage they did. That would perhaps make them realize what it takes to restore what was lost, as well as making them fell responsible for the damage.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 8:42:01 GMT
I always enjoy it when taggers are obliged to clean tags off buildings. They seem to find it excruciatingly difficult.
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Post by mickthecactus on Aug 18, 2011 13:41:55 GMT
I've had reliable insurance reports in today. Total cost estimated at no more than £300m.
Tottenham Aldi £4m
Tottenham Carpetright £10m
Sony warehouse Enfield £25m (this was burning for over 2 days - I could see the smoke driving home each evening).
Croydon furniture store - £10m
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Post by auntieannie on Aug 18, 2011 16:48:23 GMT
There were talks of many small independant shops being looted/destroyed. It would be interesting to see by how much it raises the total figure you name above, Mick. (amended to correct typo)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2011 17:00:23 GMT
I fear they won't have been insured as well.
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Post by auntieannie on Aug 18, 2011 21:28:47 GMT
same here, K.
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Post by mickthecactus on Aug 19, 2011 7:53:57 GMT
That's the insurance figure - who knows what the uninsured figure is.
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Post by fumobici on Aug 19, 2011 15:25:44 GMT
Still probably less monetary damage than one crooked financier can do with his blackberry between lines of coke.
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Post by auntieannie on Aug 19, 2011 15:50:25 GMT
very apt, fumo... very apt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 16:57:39 GMT
It's a bit rich though to make the looting out to be some kind of political manifestation. An insult to everyone who has ever gone out to demonstrate. This was 'fun'. Nothing else. Same as it's 'fun' in Berlin every 1st May when the 'underprivileged' make their demonstration... It's mid August,and,they're still burning cars in Berlin...Does the 'fun' last that long in Berlin?
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Post by hwinpp on Aug 20, 2011 5:09:05 GMT
That's another thing that gets my goat.
It's been going on for weeks already and nothing seems to be happening.
Helps of course that it isn't our cars that go up in flames every night.
And then the politicians go and tell everybody else not to make this an election issue (well they're not burning bicycles)...
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Post by tod2 on Aug 20, 2011 6:07:52 GMT
How we handled it yesterday: Our city of Pietermaritzburg is in the throws of a Municipal cleaners strike - the dirt collectors to be precise. So OK, they do not show up to our properties to load up the refuse, but to arouse more notice they proceeded to rip open the piled up garbage and left the streets festooned with rotting household waste. When the chanting mob refused to stop the police let them have it with water cannon stained with a blue dye and pepper spray.
They all retreated in dripping blue clothes and some rubbing their eyes. Then someone (??) made an attempt to clean up the mess.
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