Religious belief in Europe

[Deleted]

It's always interesting to see which country believes in what....

[bjd]

It's interesting that, except for France, it's the countries of Catholic tradition that have remained stronger believers in God.

[joanne28]

What's also interesting is that France has the highest percentage of people who have no belief in God or spirit.

[Deleted]

I am wondering a bit about this "spirit or force" business.

[onlymark]

It is said that cricket was invented by the English, a not particularly religious country, so that they have a feeling for eternity.
It seems France should have invented it instead.

[cheerypeabrain]

I'm surprised that any religious faith has survived into the 21st century....and find it slightly worrying tbh. Live and let live, but I have a horror of the way we force our children to follow our own beliefs. My boys were mercilessly indoctrinated by their teachers at Primary school, I bit my tongue and allowed them to find their own way. They went to secondary school with people of many different faiths...and we used to discuss things quite openly.

I didn't know that I was an atheist until I was in my late twenties, up until then I was pretty open-minded really. I'm not happy with the power the church has in this country, it seems quite medieval that Church leaders still have seats in the House of Lords...

[rikita]

i am kind of surprised that almost half of germans believe in God - that's probably more in the south then, not so much here?

cheerypeabrain - must admit, i am sometimes a bit offended when people find the existence of religious believes in themselves worrying and unfitting for the 21st century. that is imho similar to those religious people who find non-believers worrysome (and i definitely don't agree wtih them either, in the end everyone has to figure out for themselves what they believe)... i am regularly told what i believe in is fairy tales and the fact i believe it makes me stupid...

any kind of indoctrination in schools or elsewhere is a problem, of course - but it can just as well take place from the anti-religious side...

[imec]

But rikita, is this not in fact THE problem - and the SOLE "reason" that religion still exists???

EVERYONE is born an atheist. Thankfully some are left alone - many, many others however, are "indoctrinated" - a polite word for "brain-washed" - into believing in god long before they are taught that they should only believe that which is supported by evidence - precisely NONE of which supports the existence of ANY god. Does anyone really believe that if the notion of a god wasn't planted in a young child's mind, that they would somehow, one day dream up a character to dominate their lives? That they would seriously come to the conclusion that there are places called heaven and hell? Not a chance! Nor would they as adults come to these conclusions.

Yes, during a time when we didn't know a THING about the world around us, it is somewhat understandable that adults with wild imaginations would come up with the idea - but there was really no other way to explain things we didn't know about - weather, fire, volcanos, earthquakes, birth, death and so on. Today we don't have that excuse - we understand all these things because we have developed and effectively used the scientific process - investigation, knowledge building, evidence gathering, testing, proving and dis-proving. At this point the theist will no doubt say "Ah-ha! But no one has ever DIS-proven the existence of god!". But more importantly, not only has god's existence ever been proven, NO EVIDENCE has ever been presented to support the likelihood of it.

cheery, I'm not just surprised that religious faith has survived to this day, I'm frankly appalled - and I'm damned annoyed that many more people don't share that view. The continued, blind adherence to beliefs and teachings established at a time when man's knowledge base was so profoundly limited is evidence of the work of some truly evil people. Those that perpetuate it by passing it on to their helpless offspring should be ashamed.

(as a footnote, let me add that I was well into my 40's by the time I realized I'd been conned - something else that appalls and embarrasses me)

[bixaorellana]

I share Rikita's dismay in how often and how casually people who accept the idea of some sort of deity and/or practice a religion are intellectually insulted. The fact that I don't believe in religious observance for myself does not mean that it has no value as a way for others to metaphorically honor their spirituality.

And whereas I completely accept that it's impossible for many people to believe in god, I completely reject that such non-belief automatically implies intellectual superiority.

Religion provides the framework for a rich inner life for many people, so of course they would want to share that with their "helpless offspring". Those who impart basic personal values to their children should hardly be "ashamed" and if a person thinks of that as having been "conned", perhaps they have other issues about their parents which need addressing.

[Deleted]

If schools would consider "morals" to be a more important subject on the curriculum, it would already be of some help.

[rikita]

imec - i somehow suspect that if i said i am appalled at the existence of people not believing in God and that they should be ashamed not to teach their children some kind of religion, i would be called a fundamentalist (and just to be clear, i would never say such a thing, as i am fully aware of the possibility of there being no God, though I do believe that there is one).

[onlymark]

My parents raised me and my brother to look at religion and make a choice for ourselves. Neither parent believed in a God but showed us in a dispassionate and common sense way what it was and answered any questions we had without favour to one thing or another. Neither told us they didn't believe until we were late teens - bear in mind though religion wasn't exactly a core subject in our family so conversations were few and far between.

I accept that there is 'religion' of many forms, I accept people feel strongly about it. I don't feel anyone is less intelligent if they do believe but I just can't understand why they do. It's foreign to me, to my mind set, to accept what they do.
If someone is religious then fair enough. Get on with it. But do it quietly. Live and let live etc.

However, if you affect the way I want to live, if you try and make me see the error of my ways, if you try and influence me (or my family without my permission), try and appeal to my sense of something-or-other, I will dismiss you. I will let you get on with your way of life without a problem and interference, but if you ask me my opinion I will tell you - strongly.

I have lived in Islamic countries for a long time and apart from the odd time I hear the muezzin call to prayer I see far less religion than in a western country. When I lived in San Francisco for a few months it was pervasive, so much so it left a nasty taste in my mouth. I see, hear and I am subject to far more religion in the west.
A lot of bad things are laid at the door of religion, and rightly so. More deaths and conflict are caused by it than anything else. Child abuse, which funnily enough (even though I accept the restrictions on the press here) amounts to beatings rather than sexual abuse here. Why is it that it seems a priest or a vicar will more readily sexually abuse a child than an Imam?
I don’t know and the ins and outs of it I’m not bothered about the reasons – the point is that many evil things are done in the name of religion.

I totally accept good things are done, and these acts of kindness and generosity are far less reported than the dark side, but nevertheless, it has a lot to answer for. As to whom it will answer, maybe only God knows.
My mother was actually an agnostic, my father an atheist, I am, on the other hand, an Egoist ----- I believe in myself.

[tod2]

That was well put Mark. I totally agree with your sentiments but come from a Anglican background with relatives on my mother's side being fairly religious.
I don't know exactly when or why I came to the conclusion there is no supreme being/spirit guiding mankind and that all religions are man made.

[onlymark]

Give me a spell checker, a dictionary and a thesaurus and I can write anything.

[Deleted]

I went from the religious terror of early childhood (those nuns had some stories just as effective as any horror movie) to indifference the moment I left Catholic school. It quickly became evident that god was not intervening in my daily life or that of anybody around me, even those who were invoking the name or praying for something or other. And since I see no reason to waste time on any activity that causes no benefit ("help me pass my exams," "please tell me the lotto numbers," "don't let granny die"), I just evacuated the thought of religion from my life.

Getting older, I now become annoyed when people try to apply "laws" that are in some holy book or other. If people want to believe in some divine, hopefully benevolent superior being, that's fine, but don't try to tell me that god has decided that I am supposed to grow a beard or butcher animals a certain way or display an image of a bloody corpse nailed to some boards on my wall. (How come that is still accepted in these politically correct days? Small children even wear the corpse-on-planks around their neck as a talisman!)

[imec]

Nov 14, 2011 7:08:27 GMT rikita said:

I do believe that there is one).

But WHY rikita? What drives an educated person to believe such a thing? I ask the same of myself because it took me a hell of a long time to shed the belief. And if there IS one, do you actually like/respect hem/her? Because quite frankly, he's/she's doing a decidedly shitty job, no?

[mickthecactus]

I'm amazed that the Jewish religion prospers following the holocaust. If ever there was a time for a god to make him/herself known, that might have been a good one.....

I suspect we have some Jewish members and it would be interesting to hear their views.

[onlymark]

No matter what the religion it is always the same when bad things happen to the believers - 'He' is testing us.
You'd think with the Jewish faith that they'd be sick of being tested since, oooh, I don't know, maybe since 33AD.

[imec]

Nov 14, 2011 5:55:18 GMT bixaorellana said:

Religion provides the framework for a rich inner life for many people, so of course they would want to share that with their "helpless offspring". Those who impart basic personal values to their children should hardly be "ashamed" and if a person thinks of that as having been "conned", perhaps they have other issues about their parents which need addressing.

And where does this framework come from? The holy books? The bible is rife with teachings of murder, rape, slavery, intolerance, anger, jealousy.... these are the values parents should be proud to impart to their children? And I take great exception to your use of the word "share" - more often than not in religious households, the more accurate phrase would be "force upon".

No issue with my parents btw - they were conned too. And in an age where it became more acceptable to denounce these wicked teachings, they too more or less drifted from religious belief.

[bixaorellana]

"more often than not" -- ? It would take an exhaustive sociological study to be able to say that with certainty.

I won't argue that horrible things are perpetrated in the name of religion, nor that religion makes a person good. However, I reiterate that a belief system works for some people who are neither fanatics nor stupid. And those normal people who attempt to pass on those beliefs to their children are simultaneously displaying their ethics or lack thereof, their prejudices, political beliefs, compassion or coldness, etc. In short, they're just being people and will wind up with their x number of children believing different things in different ways, but all, in my experience, respectful of why their parents wanted to teach them religion, even as they shrug it off.

This is an interesting discussion, although it might be pointed out that the title of the OP and the opening graph are somewhat at odds. The poll did not actually ask about religious belief, but about belief in god(s)/spirit(s)/force/unnameable something. It doesn't really matter, except that it should be pointed out that many people have no religion or even reject religion, yet believe in god(s)/spirit(s)/force/unnameable something.

[mickthecactus]

As a gardener I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows........

[onlymark]

Unless you are a cactus when you don't need much rain.

[imec]

Nov 14, 2011 16:58:06 GMT bixaorellana said:

"more often than not" -- ? It would take an exhaustive sociological study to be able to say that with certainty.

Oh please! You honestly believe that the vast majority of believers actually came up with the idea themselves? Young babies ASK their parents to baptize them and send them to catechism classes? Kids in Israel are given a choice whether to be raised Jewish, Christian or Muslim? People develop a natural aversion to ham? Sikh kids are asked whether they want to look like a smurf?

People are coerced into this nonsense - and even when they reach the age of majority if they have any capacity left to make an alternate choice, many risk ostracization by their family. It's a nasty, wicked business.

[Deleted]

"Fear of god" just like fear of anything has been used to control people from time immemorial. I would like to be able to accept Buddhism as an alternative, except that it controls people with an opposite but equally effective technique: "it is normal to suffer and the more you accept it, the better your reincarnation."

[onlymark]

Smurf?!!

[cheerypeabrain]

oops...


I am sorry if you thought that I was being patronising or offensive Rikita, it's one reason that I've steered clear of this thread since my post because I didn't want to offend. I was just making a statement. I know people of faith and it's sometimes quite difficult NOT to offend them. It seems like they can say whatever they like to me about how awful I am, how remiss I was to not educate my children in the 'true path' but if I just say (when asked) 'I don't believe in god, gods, or any religion' I get accused of being closed minded and rude. I don't say these things in a patronising or threatening manner but it's invariably taken that way.

I am not a 'rabid atheist' like Richard Dawkins (who, altho I admire him, can be irritatingly smug at times) but the church has no place in my life other than as part of my interest in history, culture etc. If faith is an important part of your life I can respect that although I can't really relate to it. I don't think people of faith are stupid, I'm not THAT ignorant....but I don't have the ability to understand or embrace the concept myself.

[rikita]

sorry cheerypeabrain... maybe i overreacted a bit... it's just that (as i probably already said) i more or less grew up with people reacting negatively or even making fun of my beliefs - and while i know there are some parts in the world where you can't say you don't believe without people looking at you weirdly, there are also parts of the world where it is the other way around...

as to WHY i believe - i don't know for sure i guess... obviously it has to do with my upbringing (one of the reasons i don't believe that only people who believe in God and maybe even are only of the "right" confession are to be saved, because obviously what you believe has a lot to do with how you were raised) - in part i guess it is choice, i.e. wanting to believe. it's part of my identity (though much less so of my brothers or my mother's afaik). i guess things like fear of death (which i had strongly from childhood onwards) also plays into it. and i suppose not wanting to believe that everything (i.e. life, i myself, the thoughts and feelings i am having and all that) is just coincidence and due to some chemical reactions...

but believe is obviously not something rational so i can't say exactly why i believe... there are times when i wonder, and doubt whther i really believe, and lots of times when i don't think about it... but then there are other times when i feel quite sure of God... so it always depends...

[imec]

rikita, thank you for sharing - these are very personal thoughts which can be difficult to articulate - you did a lovely job and I appreciate your honesty.

[myrt]

Each to their own is my creed - just don't try and force anyone else to toe your line.. I don't 'believe' in anything much these days but I quite envy those who do - it can be a comforting thought that there is some other point to being alive, other than being alive.
I do think we are all part of this great huge web of energy that is the planet Earth. And at the end of life that energy that was ourself just goes back into the web and emerges as another living creature.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Actually that's fine with me.

[onlymark]

"a comforting thought that there is some other point to being alive...."

I can fully understand that people in general want there to be a point to our existence. But why does there have to be?
Ok, one can say it's sad if there isn't and resistance existence is futile then, but what if we just 'are'?
I'm personally not bothered if there is a point or not, it's to me a bit like asking what is the point of the existence of Saturn. It does affect things and if it wasn't there then things could be quite different.
But what is the point of it?

To me, "I think, therefore I am" is fine. I don't need it to be "I think, therefore I am and I am thinking about why we are here. I hope there's a point to it".