Religious belief in Europe

[kerouac2]

Well, when you think of how anti-religion the French became after the revolution, it is not all that surprising. After being totally oppressed by a religion for centuries, a backlash is inevitable. Perhaps Nouveau Brunswick was not oppressed.

[mossie]

When I saw the thread title I thought "so that's why I am so suspicious of the EU", and the realised that it seems to be becoming true.

[questa]

"Fear of god" just like fear of anything has been used to control people from time immemorial. I would like to be able to accept Buddhism as an alternative, except that it controls people with an opposite but equally effective technique: "it is normal to suffer and the more you accept it, the better your reincarnation....Kerouac 2

Thank you, Kerouac 2, for this reincarnation of a thread I had missed seeing. The original Kerouac was great friends with a man who explored Buddhism whom he called Japhy Ryder in his books. In real life his name was Gary Snyder and he is a great poet and Zen Buddhist Master now.

I would like to comment on your post way back in November 2011. I have been a student and practitioner of Buddhism for over 50 years, mainly in the Zen tradition but other teachers as well.

Buddha's teaching did not acknowledge any gods or miracles. He was only a great teacher of wisdom and compassion. After delivering a teaching he would tell his audience to test what they had heard and if it was not true to their life experience, to discard it.

In your post you have been caught in the trap of the translation of Dukka. In English it gets a mere “Suffering”whereas among many other meanings, it is best at describing the sense of dissatisfaction that we get when things are not the way we want them to be. We know the feeling on finding our phone has a flat battery or we have knocked over the carton of milk...that, too is dukka as is a leaking boat over crowded with refugees sinking with land in sight.

Buddha's first sermon was about dukka...the inevitability of all beings to experience things not to our liking.
Then he gave the reason for it...the expectation that everything should be dukka-free ,
He defined it as 'Being with what you dislike,being parted with what you like and not getting what you want.
Getting to the nitty-gritty, Buddha shows how dukka arises...unrealistic self images and expectations cause us to cling or desire...and create more pain for ourselves.
Then Buddha gave the cure for the suffering...Let Go of the clinging and desires that you are chasing, See how more anxious and disappointed you get when it is all illusions anyway. See how you are calm and not getting stressed out when you spill the milk.

I hope you can see, Kerouac, that Buddhism does not teach that suffering is “normal” but it is universal and inevitable. By following Buddha's suggestions, letting go of the illusion
that everything should be good for you,you can lessen the dukka in your life. As for having a better reincarnation...this is about the law of karma., not so much dukka. Your friend has become a bit confused.. Buddha was teaching to minimize suffering, Rebirth is a different topic.

[whatagain]

Some me things that are not said is that the percentage of believers are not correct for some countries.
Belgium for examination le considers you are a believer if you are christened. All the 6 of us have been chriatened. Not one believes. We simply like Christianity and I like the fact that the church is there and it adds to ceremonials that I am happy to follow. Our son was buried after going to church for a mass and I found it enormously comforting.
.
To be considered non believer after being christened you must de-Christian yourself. Something nobody does. Or hardly.

[questa]

How do you de-Christian yourself,Whatagain?

My former husband was Catholic (Totally lapsed) To keep the family happy we wed in a Catholic church. 13 years later we divorced and a few years later I filed for an annulment of the marriage. The archbishop of Adelaide took a personal interest because as he said, "We don't get many Buddhists writing to the Vatican for annulments here" It took 3 years and for me, quite a bit of money.
You don't have to leave the good stuff of your church, It gives you beauty in the buildings and the art and music carries you into a heavenly state. Just don't let the famous guilt and superstition get to you.

[lagatta]

We'd still have a high percentage of Catholics if they used such criteria here. Just about nobody can be bothered gatting a writ of excommunication.

[kerouac2]

I don't think that most Europeans "de-Christian" themselves. They just choose a few things they want to respect and toss the rest. As whatagain wrote, a lot of the ceremonies are nice (weddings, funerals...) and others persist (baptism, confirmation...) as a good reason to have a party, not because anybody really gives a shit. I myself was never even confirmed, because my parents decided that the Catholic church was a load of bollocks when I was 9 years old. I never questioned it, because "parents know best" even though up until then I was a perfect little religious fanatic, obsessed with sunday mass, sin, confession, novenas and god (?) knows what. It certainly wasn't deep rooted, though, because it did not bother me one bit the moment it all stopped. If my parents said it wasn't necessary, that was good enough for me.

After that, I don't think I ever set foot in a church for a ceremony for about 20 years. And then oddly enough, when my grandmother died and needed a "proper" funeral, the village priest showed up (I don't think he was full time for the village anymore because there are so few priests in France now that they have to cover a half dozen villages each) and laid out the plans for my grandmother's funeral. My grandmother was a village celebrity, and things had to be done right. My mother flatly refused to read something out of the bible as requested, so I had to do it. (My stepfather had stayed in Florida and my brother in California apparently did not think the event was of any importance.) So I got stuck with the job. Imagine me standing at the pulpit reading the bible. Yeah, really. The church was completely full. My grandfather had been the mayor of the village for about 25 years, so that counted. Family friend Gertrude (a German woman who had married a Frenchman and settled in enemy territory -- now that's another interesting story) later said that I had made a great impression because most people just knew me as "the American grandson" so they were amazed that I spoke French perfectly.

After that highlight of my religious career, I just attended one event -- the wedding of my second cousin Charles in an even smaller village. And in fact, I didn't even really attend it. I went to the church with everybody else and stayed outside. This was not any sort of moral decision, but it was a very hot day, and the moment I entered the church (tiny village church, even smaller than my grandmother's church), it was absolutely stifling. Everybody knows that cathedrals and basilicas are wonderfully cool when it is hot, but a village church in a heat wave is... stifling. So I just stood outside by the door, since I had absolutely no interest in the ceremony. I chatted up two teenage girls who had also stayed outside (I don't even know if they were supposed to be inside or if they were just passing by out of boredom.). We talked about football of all things. I was as interested in football as in the goings on inside the church, but at least there was a breeze.

That was more than 15 years ago, and I have not been in a church for an "event" since then. My parents were both cremated without any sort of ceremony, and I didn't even attend that. I just picked up the urns after the fact. I am going straight to hell.

[bjd]

I always go into churches when I travel because I think they are often interesting artistically, more for the architecture and stained glass windows than the paintings. I am also a totally lapsed Catholic but I went to my in-laws' funerals because they were both religious.

Even if I don't agree with religion, and feel that it has been the cause of many of the world's problems, if someone feels the need to believe, or the need of comfort as Whatagain mentioned, then I have no problem with that. I just don't like anyone pushing religion at me.

Every time I joke about religion or make a heretical statement, my husband tells me I will be struck by lightning.

[cheerypeabrain]

I was christened aged 6 on the insistence of my grandparents. I had no choice in the matter. I've visited churches and cathedrals, admiring them for their architecture and art. I've also been known to light a candle in these places, a comforting ritual not restricted to the Christian faith. I think that it must be a tremendous comfort to have a faith that you truly believe in. I don't follow any faith but I do believe that the great religions of the world play(ed) a very important rôle in the development of civilisation, importantly contributing to the rules that a healthy society lives by...

[questa]

Jul 31, 2019 16:05:39 GMT cheerypeabrain said:

I do believe that the great religions of the world play(ed) a very important rôle in the development of civilisation, importantly contributing to the rules that a healthy society lives by...

I think it could be the reverse...that civilisation and a healthy society are setting the standards that the great religions of the world must follow or lose all relevance.

There is always the Power factor as well. I once read that you can tell who holds the power in a community by the height of the buildings. So in ancient Egypt the pyramids, as in the Central American ones show the power was in the hands of a King/God. Move on and the Greeks and Romans built tall structures for their gods and governance.

Then as the Church spread across Europe it became the seat of all power with hundreds of massive cathedrals to prove it. Islam was also building its domes and minarets and it was inevitable the Powers should clash. Wars would be settled by the winners reducing the loser's tall buildings to rubble.

As the age of political power rose, so did its tall structures. The age of science produced university colleges, the Eiffel Tower and large engineering feats. Trade and commerce gave us the early skyscrapers.

So where is the power now? Have a look at your tallest buildings. How many house Banks or other financial entities? The god of the 21st century is Money. You only have to look at any city skyline, it gives the same sense of awe that the Pyramids once gave.

A pretty theory, yes? (You should see Australia's huge sports arenas and grandstands!)

[cheerypeabrain]

Point taken Questa. You're not wrong.

[kerouac2]

Statistics on race, ethnicity and religion are normally forbidden in France, but every now and then a rare study is authorised. The national institute of statistics has just released this study on religion in France.

51% -- no religion
29% -- Roman Catholic, 8% go to church regularly
10% -- Muslim with, 20% to a mosque regularly
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34% of Jews go regularly to the synagogue
20% of Buddhists go regularly to the temple
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58% of Muslims pray at home at least once a week.
32% of Buddhists pray at home at least once a week.