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Post by rikita on Sept 3, 2011 15:58:21 GMT
well the stolpersteine are a good concept too, but personally i also think the holocaust memorial is interesting. i would think in the end there should be a combination of different kinds of remembering, both evocation of individuals, and memorials like that one... rather than just one type...
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 3, 2011 17:46:11 GMT
Rikita, I have to admit that at the outset, I was somewhat disappointed that you chose not to post several pictures at once. But now I bow to your wisdom in organizing this thread the way you have. It gives each photo its just due and provokes discussion as you go along. Really good!
It's interesting how differently we can react to things. I looked up more about both the Stolpersteine and the Holocaust Memorial, and find the Holocaust Memorial extremely effective. The various websites all repeat the quote you used, that "Eisenman did not use any symbolism". I think that's what makes it so powerful. The scale of it demands attention, then the individual's reaction supplies any symbolism that might be needed. Looking at different views of it on other sites, I was struck by the way it suggests tombs, tombs for the masses in unmarked graves, with the vastness of the project forcefully reminding us of the extent of the murders.
That is not to say that the Stolpersteine are not a compelling and excellent concept as well. I'd say the two works of art are rather complementary, whether or not that was the intention.
Thanks to you & HW for filling in Berlin's history, too.
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Post by rikita on Sept 3, 2011 19:40:16 GMT
Hi bixa... i am glad you like the thread so far... yeah i thought if i post photos individually, i can invest more time in also telling something about the places... right now i am posting mainly tourist sites of course, at some later point i will also post from the area i live in... One day, when i went to the holocaust memoria with some friends, someone had placed flowers on a lot of the stones. I don't know if that was in the context of a specific day, or event, or just something someone did. I found the contrast of the memorial itself, and the flowers that were just lying on it, interesting...
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Post by lagatta on Sept 4, 2011 0:02:20 GMT
Oh, that humanizes it. But I don't think something so anti-environmental would be built these few years later. I'd rather try to say life can be stronger than death and plant trees, and monuments that will make us think of those people as people, and their lives. Also, their absence. Not to mention the great cultural loss of their descendants.
I also like what Amsterdam did with the Frank family's house (not the Achterhuis - back-house or back-store) of the family business. This modern flat (in a style similar to Bauhaus) in southern Amsterdam is now a residence for exiled writers and artists, facing persecution in their own country.
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Post by rikita on Sept 4, 2011 10:30:03 GMT
is it anti-environmental? never really thought about that...
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Post by rikita on Sept 4, 2011 10:35:39 GMT
It did cost approximately 25 million Euros to build though... Building started in 2003, finished in 2004, and the memorial was inaugurated in 2005. It is quite controversial, that is true, for example Ignatz Bubis, who was president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany for a while, described it as unnecessary, according to wikipedia. The current memorial is the result of a competition called out in the 1990s, for different ideas for a memorial.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 4, 2011 11:19:13 GMT
Anti-environmental just in the sense that it is a vast zone in the middle of a city with no greenery, a "hot point", of a dark material that absorbs heat. Of course that is not as important in Berlin than it would be in Rome or Madrid, but even here in Montréal urban planners are trying to avoid those now and undo the damage by various means.
And of course given its meaning, it can never be torn down or modified: only neo-Nazis would call for that (and they do, noisily, on the Web - it is horrid how quickly such dreadful sites turn up when googling about this issue).
I agree with bixa - I am really enjoying this thread and the way you present it, rikita.
On a different subject, a friend has a fellowship in a computer-science related lab (I won't be more specific as he would be easy to identify, and he is careful not to do that) at the much smaller city of Saarbrücken. He has just moved there, and is looking for a flat (he has a temporary furnished one for a month).
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Post by bjd on Sept 4, 2011 18:59:17 GMT
Actually, I admit that I don't like that memorial. It's too big, too impersonal. The first time I saw it, there was a teenaged boy there with his mother, and he was jumping from stone to stone. I didn't know whether that meant that the monument had been totally accepted and had become part of the scenery or whether he and his family just weren't affected by it.
I also had a terrible time trying to take a photograph that would show something of the place. I just couldn't get the right perspective.
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Post by rikita on Sept 4, 2011 20:17:55 GMT
actually, jumping from stone to stone is forbidden, afaik - both for safety reasons, and because it is seen as disrespectful, but people keep doing it... i do find it interesting to photograph though, so i will still post a few more photos of it, before i move on to the next thing...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 20:22:08 GMT
I agree that taken abstractly frrom its reason for existence, it is a very interesting "installation."
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Post by rikita on Sept 5, 2011 6:23:08 GMT
One thing i recently read in the newspaper that is quite shocking is that the NPD (right-wing party that they tried to prohibit various times, but that managed to always pass those tests whether they are constitutional) put up some of its posters not far from the memorial and also near the Jewish Museum. The macabre thing about this is the content of the poster: It said "Gas geben" - at other places that might be a normal quote of a German idiom meaning something like "to hurry up, to put more effort into something" - but near this memorial one is bound to have different associations. Literally, the idiom means "to give gas". Afaik the posters were taken down (if not by official means, then I am sure there were enough people who made sure that they wouldn't remain up for long...)
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Post by hwinpp on Sept 5, 2011 7:55:22 GMT
I hope 'gas geben' is not put on the PC list of approved German sayings now...
I read that story on Spiegel online and thought, 'how contrived, nothing else to write about'.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:30:50 GMT
The French press picked it up, too, because it easily translates. There is a French expression "plein gaz" (full gas) which means "full speed ahead" -- it could be "misused" the same way.
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Post by lagatta on Sept 5, 2011 15:03:58 GMT
HW, I don't think anyone wants to ban that common idiom (or the common French "plein gaz"), but the NPD deliberately made the kind of double-meaning pun in very poor taste such formations have long been known for. The French Front National's Jean-Marie Le Pen was also a past master of such wit.
I'm sure there are a lot of innocuous Cambodian expressions that could also give hurt if deliberately misused, given the more recent genocide there.
Rikita - here the NDP (English) / NPD (French) is a social-democratic labour party. A German teacher of mine voted for them and quipped that never in a million years did she ever expect to vote for the NPD!
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Post by rikita on Sept 5, 2011 20:52:13 GMT
i agree with what lagatta said - of course there is no problem with saying "gas geben" in most contexts. but a party like the npd putting posters with that saying near the holocaust memorial and the jewish museum, it is obvious what they are implying. and that is not only poor taste, it is sick, imho...
hmyeah it is always strange in newspaper articles to see a party from another country mentioned that is called npd, it happens more than once i think... and i guess vice-versa too...
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Post by rikita on Sept 5, 2011 20:57:59 GMT
To go on with this little journey around Berlin... Not far from the Holocaust Memorial is the Potsdamer Platz, today an area of modern buildings, I suppose meant to become some kind of business centre of Berlin... During the time of the wall, this was basically a waste land, most original buildings destroyed and because the wall went by right here, no new buildings were built either. So in the 90s a lot of new buildings were constructed, one of the best known ones, I suppose, is the Sony-Center. Most pictures I took at Potsdamer Platz are of the Sony-Centre's ceiling...
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Post by rikita on Sept 6, 2011 6:37:36 GMT
After four years of building time, the Sony Center, which contains a big "Entertainment complex" was opened in 2000. It is in fact an ensemble of buildings, in the middle is the so-called forum, a kind of oval-shaped square, which is covered by this tent-like roof. The roof is supposed to remind of mount Fuji in Japan... I would suppose it attracts more tourists than locals, though I sometimes go there for the Cinemax, a movie theatre, as the one in the Sony Center plays original movies without subtitles, while most German cinemas play dubbed versions of foreign movies...
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Post by rikita on Sept 6, 2011 20:09:22 GMT
At night time, the ceiling is illuminated by lights which are changing its colours... In the 18th century the city gate towards Potsdam was near here, and the area was a meeting point of traffic routes... In the 19th century, a big trainstation was built here. In the beginning of the 20th century also the final stop of Berlin's first underground train. Additionally, hotels and restaurants were built. Also a red light district developed here. Up into the 2nd world war, Potsdamer Platz was one of the busiest squares in Europe - after the war, however, it lay in ruins and was just at the meeting point of three sectors of Berlin (the Soviet one, the British one, and the American one) - in the time right after the war it was an area for a lot of black market activities. WIth time, especially of course after the construction of the Wall in 1961, it was clear that this was to be a border area and until the mid-1970s most remaining buildings of the old Potsdamer Platz were torn down.
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Post by nycgirl on Sept 7, 2011 1:05:49 GMT
Great shots! These are really eye-catching buildings.
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Post by rikita on Sept 7, 2011 6:35:23 GMT
looks a bit like a space ship, doesn't it?
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Post by rikita on Sept 7, 2011 20:25:54 GMT
In front of the Legoland Discovery Center at Potsdamer Platz (according to what I read the first inland legoland worldwide), there is this giraffe, or was (not sure if it is still there). I think in winter they even gave it a lego-hat and a lego-scarf...
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Post by komsomol on Sept 7, 2011 20:37:49 GMT
I would suppose it attracts more tourists than locals, though I sometimes go there for the Cinemax, a movie theatre, as the one in the Sony Center plays original movies without subtitles, while most German cinemas play dubbed versions of foreign movies... No subtitles? Can you see films with subtitles also?
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Post by rikita on Sept 8, 2011 6:35:15 GMT
yeah, i think they might even also show some with subtitles there, and they show them with subtitles in some more theatres... but i think this one is also meant for (native english speaking) tourists or people working in berlin, that's why they also show them without subtitles... they always ask us whether we are aware that we are going into a presentation in original without subtitles when we pick up our tickets there... but well, at least for movies in english, i definitely prefer that...
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Post by rikita on Sept 8, 2011 6:46:18 GMT
The main reason for me to go to the Potsdamer Platz area, though, are two libraries nearby: The Berlin State Library, and the Iberoamerican Library. The State Library has two locations, one of them here and is the biggest universal library in the German speaking area. It was founded in 1661 as library of the Elector, and later became royal library of Prussia. After most of its collection got to other places after the war, in 1957 the foundation "Prussian cultural property" was founded. In 1978 the current location of the library was opened, another location had opened in the East before that already. The Iberoamerican library is also part of the foundation of prussian cultural property, and is part of the iberoamerican institute, an interdisciplinary center for scientific and cultural exchange concerning latinamerica, spain, the caribbean and portugal. It is the biggest non-universitary research center concerning latin america outside of latin america. During my studies (I majored in Latin American Studies) its library was of course indispensable. THe photo shows the bicycle stands in front of the State Library.
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Post by bjd on Sept 8, 2011 7:11:31 GMT
Thanks for all this, Rikita. I like how your photographs make me regret not stopping at Potsdamer Platz. We went past on the bus and it just looked so overwhelming and unwelcoming.
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Post by onlymark on Sept 8, 2011 8:25:12 GMT
When I lived in Frankfurt there was a cinema that showed films in the original language, more than often English, and I was asked every time if I realised this. When they heard my English accented German they understood I'd have no problem at all.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 8, 2011 15:13:28 GMT
Rikita, I just want to say while the subject of your thread is certainly interesting, it is, however, your photographs that I am so impressed with. The depths, colors, black/white, symmetry, angles, they themselves, are art of art, expression of expression. You are very talented. Cheers! Mich
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Post by lagatta on Sept 8, 2011 23:56:17 GMT
I loved the bicycle parking, but why on earth aren't there any bicycles? I thought of Berlin as a very cyclable city, and one where people cycled in all weathers, or just about.
It is rare that there are films at Goethe Institut here without subtitles (except in the library). Most have French subtitles, or English ones if they couldn't get the French subtitled version. Of course none are dubbed.
Yes, these photos are very beautiful as compositions.
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Post by rikita on Sept 9, 2011 14:25:09 GMT
thanks! i am glad you like the pictures... i like photography a lot, and i think i still have to learn a lot there, but it is nice to hear that you like the photos!
as for there being no bikes in that photo - i think it was quite a rainy day, and there are a lot of bicycle stands by the library, i think those are the ones farthest from the door. on a nice summer day they still can all get full...
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Post by rikita on Sept 9, 2011 14:31:17 GMT
Okay, this is a bit away from potsdamer platz now - on unter den linden, the street that ends in the brandenburg gate (but this is already quite a bit from there, too... This place is called neue wache (new guardhouse), or Zentrale Gedenkstätte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland für die Opfer von Krieg und Gewaltherrschaft (central german memorial for the victims of war and tyranny). There used to be a moat right here, and a bridge, and a guard house by the bridge, but from 1816-1818 it was replaced by this building (hence the name) which was built back then as a memorial to the fallen of the napoleonic wars. It is one of the main works of German classicism, its architect Karl Friedrich Schinkel strongly shaped Berlin's appearance to this day...
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