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Post by cheerypeabrain on Oct 31, 2011 19:34:37 GMT
Tonight being All Hallows Eve and me having to leap up and answer the door and offer sweeties and chocolate to children dressed up as witches and devils every five minutes...I was thinking about how we adopt the traditions of other cultures.
31st October was a minor celebration in the UK, it was soon after the Harvest Festival and it was generally just a time when we had parties...the adults would drink cider, we'd have roast chestnuts and play games like 'apple-bobbing' where we had to take apples out of a barrel of water with our mouths (hands behind our back). It was a time of ghost stories...but pretty low key.
Bonfire Night (Guy Fawkes night) was always a much bigger festival in the UK on November 5th, we had bonfires on which we burn a Guy. A few days before children would make their Guy, a sort of scarecrow, and stand outside shops calling 'Penny for the Guy' and people would give them small change which went towards buying fireworks.
On Bonfire Night we had fireworks, and ate hot roast chestnuts, sausages (we call them 'bangers') in bread rolls with onions...jacket potatoes etc....it was a real family night. When I was little we used to have the whole extended family round for a Bonfire Party. ;D
Now Halloween has been adopted into our culture, but mainly with the younger generation. My children (now in their 30s) never went trick or treating, indeed my parents would have been horrified and seen it as begging! But somehow it's crept in and is now fully established as a 'Tradition'....even though it's an imported Tradition. We don't have a huge American population or anything. Just shows how influential Hollywood is!
Sadly, Bonfire Night seems to have taken a back seat now, Health and Safety laws mean that a lot of places that used to put on displays can't afford the insurance any more...so a home-grown tradition is losing it's place in our lives...
I suppose that the midwinter-festival/winter solstice is another example (I'm an atheist) In Europe the Pagan festivals being merged with Roman ones during the Roman occupation....then Christianity absorbing all of these in turn....
In Leicester we have a massive Indian population and we already celebrate Diwali and Eid (as well as the Sikh festivals) in a big way here....I wonder how long it will be before these festival become absorbed into our culture?
Is there a similar pattern where you live?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 20:00:07 GMT
Same in France, but perhaps not as much. There is no trick-or-treating in France, but children like the dressed up parties and of course ghost stories. I really don't mind, since it is harmless, and the French have neither Guy Fawkes nor Thanksgiving to help them wait until Christmas.
There was no knowledge of Halloween at all in France until about 10 years ago, and then it was used as a marketing tool (just like in the U.S.). It was extremely successful for about 4 years and then it collapsed like a bad soufflé when people came to their senses. But if it still provides some fun for the kids, that is excellent.
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Post by bjd on Oct 31, 2011 20:08:38 GMT
Well, this evening 4 kids together came trick or treating to my house. They even had some costumes on. When I told them I didn't have any candy for them, they wished me a nice evening and left. I don't think there were any last year, and there won't be any more tonight, I don't think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 20:21:51 GMT
In another vein, I think it was excellent marketing on the part of French wine merchants to get the entire world involved in the "Beaujolais Nouveau" event. Most people will agree that it is rarely a good wine, but wow, what genius to get people to drink it anyway!
(I am in the minority that actually likes Beaujolais nouveau, because I like young acidic wines. But since I also appreciate smooth and mellow wines, I totally understand how a lot of people can hate it.)
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Post by onlymark on Nov 1, 2011 6:44:23 GMT
Living away from the UK for so long I've lost track a little bit of what happens there, I presume Halloween is a lot bigger event than when I left and Bonfire Night is a lot smaller.
We did have on the night before Bonfire Night, Mischievous Night. This was somewhat unofficial but entailed going round tying door knobs together and switching gates over.
Fairly innocent stuff, in my time.
In the Philippines I noticed Halloween was quite big, in Germany it was getting bigger but in Egypt and Jordan it's virtually non-existent. Which is a good thing.
Not adopted as such but still catering originally to a minority here and in Egypt and getting bigger all the time is a rather large scale holiday in the west - Christmas.
Even being a fairly standard procedure of present giving and a big meal there is a difference between what I would do and what my wife would do. We both have the same 'tradition' in essence but we would go about it in a different way. The type of meal is different, there is a traditional meal on Christmas Eve for one of us and the presents are given out either on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve depending on whose tradition you follow.
Suffice to say, because I do the cooking, we follow the British traditional way. Also because I don't want the kids staying up to all hours on the Eve playing with their presents.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 1, 2011 22:32:40 GMT
I don't think that even in the US was Halloween as major a holiday - with door, porch or lawn decorations for cripes sakes, as it has become in the last 20 years or so. It has existed in Québec for a while, but kids also dressed up for Carnaval. In many places, it has become huge, and one of those fake, consumer-crap-driven festivals.
Cheery, we could also do one on reinvented traditions. I also don't believe in any religion, including neo-paganism, and don't really celebrate Christmas, but I do have friends over for a lovely supper some time between Christmas and New Year's, simply because people have time then. I am now expected to make a paella (lovely, but takes hours to do it properly).
Of course, I don't have children. I wouldn't deprive children of presents because I don't have any reason to celebrate a given holiday. Though once again, the standards of gifting expected have simply gone made.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Nov 2, 2011 20:43:57 GMT
Yuletide in our house is about food, family, alcohol and presents. ;D I pick and choose from the traditions available ;D as it means nowt I feel quite happy to do so. I enjoy decorating the tree, I'd burn a yule log if I had a real fireplace!I only send cards if they have 'Season's Greetings' as the message inside, not 'happy christmas'..... I always spend too much too....
If it was all cancelled I don't think it would bother me much...humbug.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 21:01:06 GMT
I only learned about All Saints Day when I came to France. And in France, hardly anybody knows the difference between All Saints Day on November 1st and the Day of the Dead on November 2nd -- they think it is the same thing.
But I think it is a wonderful tradition to honour one's ancestors (and sometimes, unluckily, descendants or siblings) and it is pretty surprising that there is no such tradition in the United States. I would think that this is because of the proximity of Thanksgiving, because it really seems like an event that would appeal to the religious element of Americans.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 2, 2011 23:19:32 GMT
Is le Toussaint not celebrated in New Orleans and other parts of Louisiana, with a highly syncretic mix with African and Indigenous American beliefs? I'd love to know - seems like a natural.
I suppose your friend (Donna?) buried in the bleak suburbs has been disinterred by now?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2011 6:07:09 GMT
I think her time comes up next month. However, I don't think they wait over the tombs with a stopwatch since there is still so much room in that cemetery. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 5-year tombs are actually 10-year tombs. Howeber, I have been thinking about returning one of these days just in case.
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Post by hwinpp on Nov 4, 2011 1:31:11 GMT
Some of the WEstern owned places make an attampt at Western holidays but it's very low key.
Valentine's Day came around about the time I came five years ago but this February it was already disappearing.
What do I do?
Christmas Eve with my girlfriend, Boxing Day with friends, New Year's Eve with everybody, that's about it.
Though I do celebrate 4/ 5 local holidays, Chinese and Khmer New Year, Pchum Ben (ancestors), Ching Ming (also ancestors) and Bon Om Tuk (the Water Festival in a week or so).
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 4, 2011 1:36:07 GMT
When I was a kid, Halloween costumes more often than not were homemade and trick or treating and Halloween parties were for children. I remember bobbing for apples was always a party game for Halloween and there were often hayrides, all of which came from a much earlier time.
I also remember being told in school that all the scary stuff with goblins and ghosts came about in England during the time of Elizabeth I as a way to mock the papists and their All Saints and All Souls celebrations. However, I've never come across that again, so don't know if it's true. Somehow, it seems doubtful.
I was surprised that Kerouac said he didn't know about All Souls/All Saints until he got to France. But I suppose that's because, even though we're from the same part of the Gulf south, he's from over there with the pernicious Protestant influence*, whereas my part is more French & Spanish Catholicism, reinforced by later waves of Italian and Irish immigration.
Even so, All Souls and All Saints had become much milder celebrations in the southern half of Louisiana by the time I came along. My mother said all-night cemetery vigils were pretty much a thing of the past when she was a child. All Saints is a holy day of obligation which, even though it affects only practicing Catholics, is something known and acknowledged by everyone in southern Louisiana. As far as I know, everyone puts flowers -- mostly chrysanthemums -- on the family graves on All Souls day and the newspapers will be full of commemorative messages about deceased loved one.
I guess all that is still true -- it might have changed since I lived there.
It's my impression that day of the dead is getting more prevalent in the US. Obviously that's partly because of the large hispanic & hispanic-descent population, but I also think it's somehow tied in with rockabilly chic. Anyone know about this?
Kerouac, I know you wrote about this before, but I don't remember the details. What happens to the disinterred remains?
*that's a joke, okay?!
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Post by lagatta on Nov 4, 2011 2:11:30 GMT
Yes, I was sure our southern cousins in Louisiana also celebrated Le Toussaint. Also tinged with African veneration of the ancestors.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 6:10:07 GMT
I was surprised that Kerouac said he didn't know about All Souls/All Saints until he got to France. But I suppose that's because, even though we're from the same part of the Gulf south, he's from over there with the pernicious Protestant influence, whereas my part is more French & Spanish Catholicism, reinforced by later waves of Italian and Irish immigration. On the Gulf Coast itself, we were in the biggest enclave of Catholics in Mississippi, but it was still a very minority religion, in spite of also having lots of Italian immigrants. Probably about 80% of the Catholics in the state lived along the coast. Whatever is left is incinerated and then scattered in a memorial garden. |
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 4, 2011 6:22:59 GMT
Hm. That's what I thought. Isn't Bay St. Louis a hotbed of Catholicism?
That is quite a sensitive way to handle the remains, the sort of thing that many people choose for themselves or deceased loved ones.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 6:31:08 GMT
Hm. That's what I thought. Isn't Bay St. Louis a hotbed of Catholicism? Yes, it is the location of the huge Saint Stanislaus seminary. But even in Biloxi, they have the blessing of the shrimp boat fleet every year. |
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Post by bjd on Nov 4, 2011 9:14:45 GMT
When I was very young, in England, I remember Guy Fawkes being celebrated, although we only watched some bonfires lit in the neighbourhood.
When we went to Canada, we did go trick or treating, although, as Bixa says, costumes were homemade. I remember too that one year the school made us collect coins for Unicef. There were certainly no Halloween parties and adults, or even older teenagers, didn't really participate, unless some parents went out with very small kids for a short time.
As for Christmas, in my family we celebrated on Christmas Eve (big special meal and presents) and another meal on Christmas Day. When I got married, in my French husband's family, Christmas Day was the main celebration, although they didn't actually do much. So, despite my wanting to keep my own traditions, the children were given their presents on Christmas Day (usually very early in the morning!). But in the past few years, if any of the kids are around, we usually stay up and talk and eat late on Christmas Eve and any presents are given then. Although we have lately been having a "no presents" policy, even though sometimes there are some small things.
New Year's Eve is either nothing or with friends, depending on circumstances.
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Post by rikita on Nov 6, 2011 18:24:33 GMT
well halloween is here somewhat, but i have the impression it is not really getting bigger lately. it came up a few years ago but in the last years it stayed like that you see a few dressed up kids going trick or treating, but usually not the very small ones, more the older ones that know about it from movies and do so more on their own initiative... traditionally costume parties are more common in february, during carnival season there always were "fasching" parties when i was a kid, and i think still now...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2011 22:30:28 GMT
I missed this thread somehow.... All Saints Day is indeed hugely celebrated here. (If I were ever to be in need of a means to make some really quick cash,I would need to only grow and pot up seven million chrysanthemums and camp out near the cluster of cemeteries here in NOLA). On November 1st,I had an appointment with a client who happens to live very close to 4 of the big cemeteries out in Metairie. I had forgotten this when I made the appointment weeks prior to the date.  I found myself caught up in a major traffic jam that day trying to get home. Indeed it has become so much of a traffic issue with cars trying to get in and out of the cemeteries that there is now a shuttle service which picks up and drops off people inside the cemetery. Were one to go to the cemetery months after one would find hundreds if not thousands of dead chrysanthemums in pots with shiny paper foil and ribbons around them. The florists must make a' killing' on that day. |
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Post by myrt on Nov 13, 2011 9:03:44 GMT
Having recently endured Trick or Treating with my very enthusastic grandchildren and youngest daughter - I live in the heartland of US dominated military bases so it's a BIG thing round here - I am hanging on like grim death ;D to the Bonfire Night traditions. It's always been a family event for me and I still really enjoy it. The soggy weather scuppered the bonfire bit this year but we had a little firework show followed by the traditional jacket potatoes and sausages plus a selection of the pickles and chutneys made from our home grown vegetables and fruits. It's a chance for my beloved family to get together without all the stress of the dreaded Christmas hysteria. And this year we all had a good cuddle with the very new baby so it was extra special.  I don't make a fuss about it but I try and mark the pagan festivals. I always light a candle and have a quiet moment to celebrate the Solstices and their spiritual meanings. They have always had more meaning to me - Bonfire Night has been hijacked in the same way as other festivals but it's the changing over of the seasons for me - the actual date is irrelevant really. These days any cultural traditions that haven't been totally taken over (and mutilated) by commercial considerations should be cherished... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2011 9:11:55 GMT
Absolutely, but are there even any examples of unmutilated traditions left except in completely isolated villages?
(Arrgggg! That just made me flash to certain African puberty ceremonies which should not only not be cherished but banned.)
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Post by myrt on Nov 13, 2011 9:15:30 GMT
Crumbs..........that's triggered some weird stuff in my head! ;D
I think there probably are many quiet unadulterated celebrations going on all over the world. In the UK all sorts of pagan based things happen that are local in nature. We only hear about the acceptable or notorious ones!
Off the top of my head, there are things like viking boat burnings, cheese rollings, strange costumed dancing with bits of dead pig and weapons, processions through villages with burning effigies...all based on local historical events.
It's probably mad but it's interesting! And loads of them have been adopted by wider society haven't they?
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Post by onlymark on Nov 13, 2011 11:08:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 19:30:45 GMT
Well, I finally bought some Beaujolais nouveau today (it came out yesterday). It is definitely not one of the best years, but the price continues to rise. I had to pay 4.95€ this time.
The supermarkets now buy very small stocks here, and they do not restock when they have sold their initial order.
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