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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2011 19:43:24 GMT
I know that a number of members here have immigrated, either on their own volition or due to their parents' decision when they were children. And of course, some became immigrants through marriage, even though a number of such people do not embrace the new country and prefer to remain expats.
Immigrating is extremely different from being an expat (or a "repat" which is how I see myself -- born French in a foreign country and 'returning' to France at a later age). Immigrants generally want to be naturalized as fast as possible, even when they also retain their orginal nationality.
I have some close friends who are immigrants, but apart from my Singaporean friends who immigrated to Canada, the reasons for the decision have never really been discussed. My friends from Singapore talked about the possibilities for years. They felt that Singapore was too small for the future of their (unborn) children, they were a bit worried about possible threats from Indonesia, and they were really attracted to the bright future they saw in some countries like Canada or Australia. So, what decided them on Canada? The weather! They were tired of living on the seasonless equator and they really wanted to experience the complete variety of seasons.
Thirty years later, they are still thrilled to be living in Vancouver, and they completely avoid "Vankong" except when they want to go to the restaurant. They also made sure that their daughter spoke fluent French as well as English, because they felt that it was essential in their new bilingual country.
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Post by frenchmystiquetour on Dec 2, 2011 19:58:18 GMT
Some of us (me) knew from a young age that we were born in the wrong country. I never identified or felt comfortable with American culture but immediately identified with Euoropean culture (no country in particular) when I took my first humanities course at the age of 14. However, I'll never be French either (not that I'm trying). I've always considered myself a citizen of the planet rather than any particular country.
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Post by bjd on Dec 2, 2011 20:36:21 GMT
I may have mentioned it before but I don't think you can become "French", or probably any other well-defined kind of nationality, if you arrive as an adult. Cultural differences, educational differences, cultural references (i.e. I could never understand why Louis de Funes is considered amusing), all mean that you will not be completely assimilated no matter how long you live there or how well you speak the language.
On the other hand, it's quite easy to become Canadian, American, and certainly Australian -- all those countries based on immigration from many different countries and cultures.
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Post by mich64 on Dec 3, 2011 18:33:45 GMT
Being the daughter of a member of the Military, I think most Military children lack confidence when stating where we are from. I now answer the question as to where I live currently, but when I was younger and people would ask me "where are you from" I would never have an immediate answer. I would have to think about it and try to count the number of years I lived in places and say where I lived the longest must be where I am from. Being a "Canadian Born Abroad" (yes, I actually have a government form headlined by this as identification to go along with my birth certificate from France) I treasure my passport because it makes it less confusing and I do not have to carry these two pieces of deteriorating pieces of paper. The next time I am in France, I should stop by the City Hall of my birthplace to acquire a new one before it falls apart and inquire how I get a new Canadian Born Abroad certificate since I have to submit both of these forms each time I apply for a new passport. I do feel when I am in France that I belong there, it is the stangest feeling. I am also a proud Canadian. Mich
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Post by bjd on Dec 3, 2011 20:24:36 GMT
Mich, you can ask the "service d'état civil" to send you your birth certificate. You can certainly contact them online and don't need to go in person. In principle, it's free. I just found the link: www.acte-etat-civil.fr
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 3, 2011 22:15:30 GMT
I may have mentioned it before but I don't think you can become "French", or probably any other well-defined kind of nationality, if you arrive as an adult. Cultural differences, educational differences, cultural references (i.e. I could never understand why Louis de Funes is considered amusing), all mean that you will not be completely assimilated no matter how long you live there or how well you speak the language. On the other hand, it's quite easy to become Canadian, American, and certainly Australian -- all those countries based on immigration from many different countries and cultures. I have been thinking about this thread ever since I read it yesterday. Of the answers, I totally agree with the first part of Bjd's. If you arrive as an adult, you've already been formed by all the influences Bjd lists, plus there's the heavy identification with ones own family & background. I certainly self-identify as an American and no matter how long I live here, will continue to do so. I know an American lady here who moved here @1951. She's now 92 years old. Her husband and four children are Mexican -- some of them don't speak English. Her Spanish & her understanding of the culture is so developed that she slips seamlessly between the two languages and cultures. Still, she has never stopped thinking of herself as an American. No matter how profoundly you accept, love, & internalize the adopted country, there is still an essential part of who you are that was imparted by your home country. I can't totally agree with the 2nd part of Bjd's statement, about how easy it is to become one with those countries traditionally based on immigration. That's because of the reasons listed above. There are certainly people who are immensely proud to be a part of the new country, but for the 1st generation at least, they'll always be from somewhere else, no matter their zeal for assimilating.
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Post by mich64 on Dec 4, 2011 2:21:20 GMT
Wow bjd, thank you very much for the link. I am going to try it and let you know how I progress. Cheers! Mich
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Post by bjd on Dec 4, 2011 8:20:54 GMT
Maybe I should qualify the second part of what I said earlier. Bixa is right to say that the first generation doesn't assimilate as quickly even in immigration-based countries. I admit that my ideas are rather based on the people like my family and others who immigrated to Canada in the 1950s or so. They were looking to leave Europe and make a new life and even if they retained accents and different backgrounds, they came to see themselves as "Canadians".
Only in the early 1970s did the idea of hyphenated Canadians become acceptable and even popular, with a festival called "Caravan" in Toronto, where the public could go around centres run by Lithuanians or Germans or Poles and taste the food, see folk dances or whatever. Before that, it was Anglo Protestant (not talking of Quebec here, only of Ontario) and the kids I went to high school with -- many of us not born in Canada -- tried hard to pretend we were Anglo. The amount of insulting names given to various ethnicities were numerous. Now, of course, that has changed.
Immigration has also changed -- at that time, there were no "visible minorities". The term didn't even exist.
I can't guess whether anyone in Toronto seeing a woman in a burka or hijab walking down the street sees her as "Canadian" or "American". Or how they see themselves.
As for me, I don't really self-identify as a Canadian. I do it as a short-cut on internet forums, or when someone in France asks me why I have a slight accent. I do feel more at home in France than I do in Canada now, but I have been here nearly twice as long as I lived there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 6:14:32 GMT
I wasn't even talking about the feeling of assimilation but the idea of "I have changed country and there's no going back." Most immigrants never assimilate although their children do.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 5, 2011 7:07:40 GMT
Well, by that yardstick, then I am a true immigrant. Even when I'm back in my own country visiting, I think of returning to Mexico as going home.
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Post by bjd on Dec 5, 2011 10:17:41 GMT
Well, I have certainly changed country and am not going back, except to see family and friends. But somehow I never thought of it as "immigration". Maybe because immigration seemed so final, whereas I knew that all my options remained open.
This is the first time I actually think about the word immigration for myself -- I guess I just saw it as "moving to France". Whereas when we left England for Canada when I was a kid, it was indeed immigration. Strange.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 20:45:13 GMT
Indeed, the idea of moving to another country is not always the same as immigration. I doubt that my mother ever thought of herself as an immigrant to the United States -- she just married an American and moved there to be with him -- not at all the same as going somewhere to adopt a country ("land of opportunity" or whatever). It turned out to be a very good thing when I brought her back to France, because even though she was mentally diminished, she never once felt that she was leaving her "home."
I think it is identical for millions of spouses who marry the person, not the country he/she is from.
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Post by spindrift on Dec 12, 2011 19:27:09 GMT
That is so, Kerouac, I never for a minute felt that Kenya was my home although I lived there for two years.
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Post by foreverman on Dec 13, 2011 4:44:58 GMT
As soon as I arrived in Australia in 1972 I knew I was at home and have called it home ever since. In fact on my last visit to the UK I felt a stranger in the land of my birth..........
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Post by hwinpp on Dec 13, 2011 6:38:59 GMT
I changed countries and I'm not going back either. Don't think I'll ever become Cambodian, though it's not that difficult becoming one.
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