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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2012 18:56:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 12:12:14 GMT
In any case, speaking French is a very bad thing!
(Thanks to sojoh for unearthing this!)
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Post by hwinpp on Jan 21, 2012 14:51:09 GMT
The republicans are going crazy. There's nothing more you need to say.
Just look at that serial adulterer Gingrich. What a hypocritical son of a bitch.
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Post by lola on Jan 21, 2012 21:30:34 GMT
Let me just say this in Romney's defense: his French accent appears to be pretty bad.
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Post by auntieannie on Jan 22, 2012 12:33:57 GMT
Did you see who paid for that anti-Romney vid?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 12:38:22 GMT
Yes, of course, that's the beauty of political advertising in the U.S. People who are supposed to be on the same side rip each other to pieces and then name each other vice president or secretary of state.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 22, 2012 14:48:39 GMT
I can't decide whether that degree of ignorance in itself or its glorification is worse.
Will they jail us if we walk around speaking French in the US?
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Post by onlymark on Jan 22, 2012 16:08:50 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 23, 2012 0:10:58 GMT
When I lived on the US border with Mexico, many of the people in the town were bilingual. The ones who weren't were always annoyed by the ones who spoke Spanish. I'm talking about situations similar to the pub one -- the people speaking Spanish were doing it between or among themselves & weren't engaged in any way with the non-Spanish speakers. Several times I heard statements such as, "It pisses me off because they might be talking about me!" I've heard versions of that same statement from non-Vietnamese speaking people who use nail salons run by Vietnamese.
WHY would people assume that any other pair or group of people were automatically talking about them?
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Post by lagatta on Jan 23, 2012 13:16:22 GMT
It didn't occur to any of those people that learning Spanish might be a good idea?
Of course, learning Vietnamese might be more difficult - also of more limited use than learning the language of a large country on the other side of the border, and most of the countries southwards.
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Post by patricklondon on Jan 27, 2012 7:02:44 GMT
I have a feeling I've heard something similar about monoglot English-speakers in towns with a high proportion of Welsh-speakers, and of course where there a large numbers of immigrants speaking their own language. There are some people who just feel frightened of strangers in numbers.
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Post by Kimby on Jan 27, 2012 16:46:43 GMT
I'm trying to learn a foreign language: UK English. Not very successfully, though.
When we watch films made in the UK, Australia or other non-American English speaking countries, we often have to resort to turning on the subtitles for the hard of hearing in order not to totally misinterpret the dialog.
Like last night during Boy A. We realized that what we had heard as "wait while" in Brit English actually meant "White Whale" when we re-watched it with the subtitles.
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Post by Kimby on Jan 27, 2012 16:50:06 GMT
It is incredibly embarrassing to be an American tourist mingling somewhere abroad with European tourists when someone inevitably asks "what other languages do you speak?" hoping to find a shared common language that we can communicate in. (And I'm in the 10% that has studied another language, Espanol, but can only converse at the level of a 5 year old.)
The Swiss are the "worst" since they routinely speak 3 or 4 languages plus English.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 18:26:44 GMT
On top of that, the star of Boy A, Andrew Garfield, was born in Los Angeles! Okay, he did grow up in England, but he can also pass for American, as he proved in The Social Network and will probably prove again as the new Spiderman. (Frankly, I think that Boy A is by far the best work he has done.)
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Post by auntieannie on Jan 27, 2012 19:35:32 GMT
Sorry, Kimby! ;D
People here (in the UK) keep being amazed that I am able to communicate effectively in English AND in other languages. It's a question that comes often in conversation. I really have trouble taking "and you're doing this uni course in a language that is foreign to you" as a compliment, even though I know that's how it is meant.
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Post by Kimby on Jan 27, 2012 20:51:38 GMT
The key to being good with languages seems to be getting started as a young one. Being female also doesn't hurt.
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Post by auntieannie on Jan 27, 2012 22:16:49 GMT
I think it's all a question of listening skills. Add a pinch of cheekiness and there you are!
although you may well be right that if you get the chance to listen to a variety of languages young, you get used to picking up the different sounds and therefore have less difficulty later.
What I mean by the cheekiness comment is that you need to dare to speak a foreign language even if you will make mistakes as you won't learn it any other way. practise, practise, practise.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 28, 2012 15:19:59 GMT
It didn't occur to any of those people that learning Spanish might be a good idea? Really! That's what I used to wonder all the time, especially since I believe Spanish is always offered as a foreign language in US high schools. There are some people who just feel frightened of strangers in numbers. That must be it, Patrick. So much for the "global village". Kimby, I often have the same problem. I hate having to use subtitles for my own native tongue, but I sometimes wind up going back on the disc several times, often with no luck. My theory is that it's not the accent that gives trouble, but the different rhythm used in different accents in English. Re: Andrew Garfield -- I don't know if anything could ever top Idris Elba in The Wire. His American English is so perfect that I always think he must be faking it when speaking his native British English. Kimby, I think you're right about the younger the better in learning a language, certainly as far as accent is concerned. Young adults seem to grasp and reproduce another language faster & better than older adults. And of course little kids have even less trouble, because they're not all uptight about it. you need to dare to speak a foreign language even if you will make mistakes as you won't learn it any other way Amen! Amen! Amen! I think it's all a question of listening skills. Henry Kissinger's brother was once asked why he had no German accent when speaking English, whereas his brother's was rather strong. He replied, "Ah, but I listen so much better than Henry does!" I gnash my teeth in frustration at foreigners here who can never understand Spanish and always blame it on the speaker's accent or speed or something. These are the same people who won't find an intercambio or try watching local tv or listening to local radio.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 28, 2012 16:55:12 GMT
I've always wondered why Kissinger's German accent has remained so strong, given that his family fled Nazi persecution to NYC when he was a teenager.
bixa, those are the type of people the British India stereotype "Colonel Blimp" referred too. He grumbled about spending decades in India, and those damned people still haven't learnt English! (Though of course many did, later on, with a vengeance and are a huge voice in English-language literature - and call centres).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 18:15:36 GMT
I've always wondered why Kissinger's German accent has remained so strong, given that his family fled Nazi persecution to NYC when he was a teenager. I would assume that he lived in a German community and probably did not speak much English until he got out and about. That is something that rarely happens in France since ethnic enclaves are not encouraged as they are in certain countries. Schooling is relentlessly French.
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Post by bjd on Jan 28, 2012 19:43:00 GMT
This reminds me of a guy my husband shared an office with at the university in Austin, Texas.. He was from Idaho. 35 years later he came to visit us here in France. Told us about his "sweetie" who had been teaching English in Greece for 30 years. "And, you know, she even learned the language!". We were supposed to be impressed. I'm always amazed that kids in the States don't have to study another language in high school. And, of course, it's easier to learn another language if you start off with two. Not only do children lack embarrassment about mistakes in language, I believe there is a physical reason for their learning accentless language. I just found this: As we are learning more and more about the brain, there is a hypothesis that when a child is going through puberty, that is the time that accents start. Before a child goes through puberty, the chemical processes in the brain are more geared towards language and social communication. Whereas after puberty, the ability for learning a language without an accent has been rerouted to function in another area of the brain—most likely in the frontal lobe area promoting cognitive functions, or in the neural system of hormone allocated for reproduction and sexual organ growth.Full article here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_language
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 20:45:36 GMT
I had read at some time in the past that puberty locks in foreign languages -- meaning that you can completely forget a language that you spoke perfectly in childhood if you are not still using it at puberty. But if you are speaking it at that time, you will never forget it.
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Post by cristina on Jan 30, 2012 6:25:11 GMT
I had read at some time in the past that puberty locks in foreign languages -- meaning that you can completely forget a language that you spoke perfectly in childhood if you are not still using it at puberty. But if you are speaking it at that time, you will never forget it. This probably explains why my Spanish pronunciation is pretty good (although my grammar and vocabulary are still more like a toddler's). But I was speaking French with a much greater vocab/grammar level at puberty but my accent is horrible, at least to me. My children all attended catholic schools where a foreign language is usually mandatory starting at 6 years old. All 3 studied Spanish up through 8th grade, and the 2 older ones continued in high school (while Arizona doesn't require a foreign language for graduation, their schools did require 2 years). My youngest daughter switched to French in high school and will have 4 years of it when she graduates due to a little bribery from me. As a side note to an earlier post about Romney speaking French, the makers of that little bit of propaganda were probably ignorant of the fact that Gingrich lived in France for a while as a teenager and did graduate studies in Belgium. I suspect he might speak French.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 6:32:02 GMT
But only behind closed doors with the curtains pulled across the windows!
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Post by bjd on Jan 30, 2012 9:18:27 GMT
In that case, Gingrich's French is probably much better than Romney's. I remember talking to some Mormon missionaries years ago and they told us they were sent with no language lessons whatsoever. They were supposed to pick it up wherever they were sent.
No doubt because Jesus Christ spoke English.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 30, 2012 18:42:55 GMT
That's a really interesting note about the Mormons. They are a very visible presence here, and I believe in the rest of Mexico as well. Since the proselytizing young men travel in pairs, it's always very obvious here in this heavily indigenous population that one of them must be a foreigner. However, it seems the foreign member of the team generally speaks Spanish quite well. It lends credence to the perception that young people learn language more easily. I think the Mormons may be on to something in terms of language learning -- throw them into the deep end of the pool! My niece visited here when she was in her early twenties. She went to an immersion language school and in @ a week could carry on basic conversation. I know far too many foreigners here who really can't converse in Spanish. They do a little studying, then decide it's too hard, and simply seek out other English speakers for their social outlets. bixa, those are the type of people the British India stereotype "Colonel Blimp" referred too. LaGatta, I have a friend who refers to those types as "colonials". ;D My own experience seems to prove that the study about learning a language in childhood but not still using it by puberty is a true thing.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 30, 2012 18:51:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 18:55:19 GMT
My Mormon nephew (now rather relapsed) speaks perfect Brazilian after having spent 2 years near Sao Paolo on his mission. That already cured him of his vegetarianism ("eat meat or die"), but I am not sure who put him on the path to hell with alcohol. I finally revealed this to my brother two years later, who almost choked laughing. I made him promise not to talk about this with his son, who still has a few issues to resolve. But I am very happy to know that my nephew is totally fluent in Spanish and Portuguese, since he is an immigration lawyer in San Diego. I think that he is also beginning to pick up a bit of Russian due to the clientele.
There is a Mormon nest in my neighborhood, but I have not found the exact location yet. I take the metro with them every now and then.
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Post by bjd on Jan 30, 2012 20:28:15 GMT
I just read Summer's lecture linked above. I don't agree about the non-necessity of learning languages. Just because people all over the world are trying to learn English, doesn't mean that Americans (that's who he is talking about) should not bother learning other languages.
Learning a language is not just about memorizing vocabulary and verb conjugation in order to be able to speak a few words. It's learning about different ways of thinking and approaching life. A perfect example of this lack of understanding of the issue is the US approach in Iraq or Afghanistan, where they Had/have nobody capable of understanding the mentality of the locals, hence the screw-up over the years.
No matter how powerful and rich your country is or was, expecting everybody else to speak your language is just arrogance.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 31, 2012 4:59:27 GMT
To me his whole presentation seemed to be in favor of dumbing down and creating a sort of group mind where all the cogs are happy to be mediocre. His own mind is a classic of clueless mediocrity, with each of his propositions having glaring & obvious flaws. To take only his first point, for instance: 1. ... in a world ... with search procedures that are vastly better than any card catalog, factual mastery will become less and less important.Say what? If ain't gonna know nothin, how're we gonna know how and what to look up? Check out the comments at the end of Summers' essay, all of which are written by people stunned by the man's boobism. And the second link in #26 shows that none of the responders agreed with him. Almost all of what he writes practically contradicts itself. For instance, he bemoans the passivity of students learning from lectures, but thinks learning from videoed lectures is a fine idea. Eh? I think the most depressing thing about his presentation is how it leaves out any supposition that individuals might want to hone resourcefulness, might enjoy stretching themselves to new skills, or might benefit from self-empowerment. No, that's not the most depressing thing. The most depressing is the information at the bottom of the essay, indicating that others were guilty of putting this bumbler in such high positions.
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