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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 17:34:03 GMT
Actually, there is one relatively important problem with the European system that I would like to mention. Since the life of a student is rather pleasant in Europe, I think that a lot of people remain students for too long. I think they should put a limit on the number of "cheap" years, except perhaps for medical students who require far longer studies (and maybe some other important professions that do not come to mind at the moment).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 18:22:40 GMT
(Isn't it curious how health care keeps popping up in this thread???) Canada can indeed be proud of its health system. It is several steps above its southern neighbour.
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Post by fumobici on Jun 8, 2012 19:45:55 GMT
Education is infrastructure at its most fundamental level. The manifold benefits to the society it confers are obviously beneficial to everyone in that society. It is, or should not, ever be considered a luxury or a preserve of some entitled subset of society that can afford it. The very idea that economic barriers should be erected that will exclude a significant portion of that society from availing themselves of it is frankly madness. I can't even imagine what people that oppose universal access on a merit basis to post secondary education think will be accomplished by restricting it to that subset of society that can afford it.
The US system of an entitled class with preferred access to the benefits of post secondary education is not a model that should be emulated. Maybe we wouldn't have shameful pluralities of woefully misinformed citizens who believe that evolution and climate change are myths if we did a better job of educating our citizens. Ignorance has terrible costs, and particularly so in a democracy. Why do we rail against a more "ideal world" instead of supporting those trying to build one?
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Post by fumobici on Jun 8, 2012 19:48:45 GMT
So you don't think that they deserve a better system than the United States? Better quality education? Someone's gotta pay - don't make it ME. The whole problem in a nutshell.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 20:51:26 GMT
Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
It all boils down to the Haves not wanting to pay for the Have-nots, even if indirectly. It's the 'as long as we're alright Jack' kind of attitude. To hell with an ideal world. It's the - I pay for own kids to hell with those who don't have enough money to pay for theirs - . I don't see many complaining about the billions spend on warfare. I guess that must be 'okay' and worthwhile? Maybe even, it makes the Haves feel like they are 'better' in some way, and want to keep the divide. Even if that unfairly pushes their less brighter kids to the forefront.
lol at Keoruac's video. Canada still has a much better health system than most. I have very few complaints. btw I think I'm immigrating to France, looks like the place to be nowadays. Wait I don't have to immigrate, since I'm a European citizen already. I simply arrive and say, I'm home, baby, yeah.
Exactly.
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Post by imec on Jun 9, 2012 14:41:48 GMT
OK, maybe not trolling, but surely baiting... Where to start? 1. IT IS NOT FREE - ANYWHERE!! It may be provided at no cost to the user but SOMEONE HAS to pay! It's high time that the "vast majority of people" in "most of Europe" realized that. 2. I'm keenly aware of the benefits of education and of the obligation AND the benefits of paying taxes. However, if my taxes are to be used for education I want it to be used specifically for a) a high quality primary education for all and b) base level funding for secondary education institutions and c) financial assistance for those who can truly NOT afford to pay a nominal amount for their own secondary education. I also want to ensure that my tax dollars are funding the pursuit of meaningful endeavors which have some reasonable expectation of providing a return to society for their investment - i.e. the bulk of the funding should go to vocational and professional education rather than the pursuit of "higher learning" with unclear goals. 3. At no time have I ever implied that the Canadian system is anywhere close to, let alone "absolutely" perfect. Like most systems it has its pluses and minuses. On the plus side: It's reasonably affordable. (I've yet to meet someone who did not attend college because they could not afford the tuition). It's of a reasonable quality and some schools even offer programs which approach those of the better if not the best schools in other countries. It's NOT entirely profit driven. I'm aware of very few Canadian schools which compromise the integrity of their programs by undue relaxation of entrance requirements. On the minus side: It's not available at no-cost (although access programs are available - most notably to those of aboriginal status) Tuition is in some cases regulated by the provincial government making it difficult for schools to manage their own cost/quality model. 4. I'm delighted to hear that Europeans are committed to equal access education. I'd be even more delighted were they to introduce and support (i.e. pay their damn taxes) an economic model which could sustain that commitment. Last time I looked at a newspaper it appeared to me that it is not Canada facing a potential economic collapse but much of Europe. I have no idea how Europe will ensure it's citizens continue to enjoy their entitlements (free health care, free education, more holidays and vacation than actual work days it sometimes seems.... ) without dramatically increasing taxes which will undoubtedly precipitate a revolution of a whole different scale. 5. Canada is facing some VERY real problems. We have remote aboriginal communities which lack access to fresh water and basic sanitation systems. Aboriginals who migrate to the cities are plagued with social problems including substance abuse, child sexual abuse, horrific rates of crime etc. (prison populations are something like 90% aboriginal). The children raised in these conditions don't stand a f'ing chance. Many are born with FASD, they are neglected, abused, recruited into gangs at an early age etc. etc. etc. They don't succeed in life NOT because of limited access to education but because of being denied the very basic necessities of care. I'd rather see my tax dollars focused on helping these kids instead of subsidizing the brats of Montreal so they can spend their own money in the bars of Crescent street.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 17:42:51 GMT
Kerouac gives good bait. You can take the boy outta Mississippi, but you can't take the Mississippi outta da boy!!!!
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Post by fumobici on Jun 9, 2012 21:26:55 GMT
I liked to call it chumming on a board I used to admin on. Less directed than baiting, you just want to stir up a feeding frenzy.
Not that I'm implying anyone did troll/bait/chum this thread. It's been remarkably civil by internet standards!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 22:05:01 GMT
The only thing that disturbed me in the discussion was seeing the students labeled "morons" and "spoiled brats" without anything to back up such statements -- but that is a given in any discussion of political rights. The 'other side' is branded things like "lazy" or "stupid" for lack of anything useful to say.
Lagatta was the only person here who might have been able to give a bit of first hand knowledge of the situation in Québec but for perfectly understandable reasons, she preferred to stay out of the discussion and I will not at all criticise her for that.
For me the whole point of the situation is how does one want one's taxes spent? Apparently, the Québec government feels that it is spending too much on education and that the burden should be put on the students like in the rest of North America. I just felt that it was a poor decision, because I don't know of any country in the world that is spending too much money on education. However, I think I have spotted a few that are spending too much on the military industry, on bank bailouts and on internal security (just in my opinion, of course). I would like to see huge fines put on pollution and on mismanaged bank funds rather than rewarding the people responsible. Attacking the educational system seems to just be a smokescreen to take one's attention off the more important issues.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 13:49:13 GMT
I liked to call it chumming on a board I used to admin on. Less directed than baiting, you just want to stir up a feeding frenzy. Not that I'm implying anyone did troll/bait/chum this thread. It's been remarkably civil by internet standards! wise. I agree very much with this. The students demonstration behavior in both Quebec with the violence that ensued and in Montreal with the disruption and banging of pots and pans, cannot be classified as "civilized" by my standards. I am also only seeing what the media is allowing us to see. At the risk of putting myself in a defensive posture on this, I need to say that I agree with much of the sentiment posted here from both sides of the debate. I think immense changes need to occur, and no one system seems to be achieving these goals without someone having to "pay", whether it be monetarily or otherwise. My main objection lies with the manner in which the students in Canada set out to try and make themselves "be heard". To be quite honest, I don't know that much about the system and how it works or doesn't in Canada other than what I've read on here. I do know that it is not working here in the US. .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 14:58:25 GMT
I fear that the media are the ones who should be denounced more than the students. I would be surprised if even 1% of the students did anything violent, but we all know how it is portrayed on television. Many of the demonstrations have been quite festive and peaceful, but that isn't as interesting on the evening news. "Rule with fear," that's what I always say. By impressing on people that demonstations and protest are always bad, it's easier to keep your own local people on a leash. Just keep your head down and pull the plough. Meanwhile, I have not read much about what is going on for the last few days except that they were afraid of a Grand Prix disruption that never happened. The big children were able to drive their little cars around in circles -- now that is really useful for the future of the country.
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Post by mich64 on Jun 11, 2012 18:34:10 GMT
From reports I have read and viewed, there were many arrests made throughout the Grand Prix weekend. The CLASSE Representatives are claiming there were parallel protests happening and that the Police were profiling anyone wearing the red squares and that some of those people do not represent their cause, that they were protesting capitalism.
One report stated that 28 people were arrested Saturday and 18 will be facing charges such as assault, possessing weapons, damaging private property, etc. Many of those arrested when searched were found to be carrying rocks and knives.
Oh, and one reported that a group of protesters were riding nude on bikes through the downtown.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 18:36:31 GMT
Ah, the evening news finally showed some new scenes of the demonstrations from yesterday. It still looks quite confusing, but I didn't see any of the violence that has people quaking.
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Post by mich64 on Jun 11, 2012 20:56:45 GMT
I guess no one got the nude bikers on camera!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 11:41:26 GMT
There has been little to no coverage of these demonstrations (in either locale) here in the US. I say that with fair certainty as my husband is a news junkie of sorts and when I went to discuss some of it with him last week,and again this past weekend, he was clueless as to what I was referring. Curious in and of itself it would seem. The seemingly festive party like air of what's recently been portrayed reinforces my initial reaction that this an opportunity for many idle bored packs of students a milieu to "act out". It must be extremely frustrating to those who set out to demonstrate their grievances in a more somber serious fashion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 13:39:39 GMT
There was a photo of a broken bank window into today's free newspaper. I guess they figured it was more interesting visually than showing the peaceful demonstrators they talked about in the article -- so boring after four months!
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Post by fumobici on Jun 12, 2012 18:32:52 GMT
Peaceful protests aren't so much news, so even if a protest is 99.9% peaceful the .1% that isn't is what the media will focus on. Mainstream political parties hate any protests that arise spontaneously outside their authority and control so there will be pressure to paint them in a bad light from that direction as well. Demonizing peaceful protesters also serves the cause when the call is made to send in the cops to bust heads, break out the chemical agents and show the people who's really in charge.
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Post by imec on Jun 13, 2012 1:45:45 GMT
I abhor abuse of authority/power and abuse of rights/privileges pretty much equally.
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Post by imec on Jun 17, 2012 15:58:10 GMT
I dined with a customer from Montreal the other night and when I asked about her impression of the protests, interestingly the first thing out of her mouth was "spoiled brats".
Another of her comments also made me realize the folly of discussing the protests in the simple binary context of violent or non-violent. She told us how the protesters not only impeded her travel on at least one occasion, delaying her drive by about 50 minutes, but also how the "peaceful" (i.e. not apparently brick-throwing or fire setting) protesters surrounded her car and began pounding their hands on it. Violent? Maybe not. Peaceful? Debateable but let's say sure. Acceptable? Not to her nor to me. Intimidation has no place among citizens of a civilized society.
I was also intrigued by her observation that, by and large, those studying with a professional goal (e.g. science, engineering, commerce, law etc) were neither engaged nor interested in this movement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 17:40:50 GMT
I was looking for new information about the situation a couple of hours ago since the rest of the world is getting no new details, and all I came up with was 8 arrests last night for "illegal assembly."
I will keep looking, because I am still wondering how all of this is going to end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 17:58:44 GMT
The French press is betting on new provincial elections in Québec this autumn. I don't have the slightest idea of what the outcome might be. Anyway, here is a recent article about the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 18:47:39 GMT
Not directly related to the problem in Québec, but I thought it was interesting in a news report tonight to see them talking about the problem of too many medical students in France. Unlike other subjects, medicine in France is restricted by a numerus clausus which weeds out "excess" students starting in the second year. (I don't know about Canada, but I know this exists in the U.S. as well because I had a friend who went to medical school in Guadalajara, Mexico, where most of the students were apparently American. And everybody has heard about the American medical students in Grenada.)
So the medical students who don't make the grade go to medical school in Belgium, Spain, Poland and Romania. Belgium has become fed up because it is financing the most French students, who represent a majority of the students, so it is making a numerus clausus to limit French students to 30%. Naturally, the biggest problem with the French students is that they return to France as soon as they graduate, because the European rules make their diplomas valid -- and the other countries have been drained of their own finances without getting the appropriate benefits.
Obviously this is unfair, and France is not providing enough medical education. Then again, France is welcoming huge numbers of other students in other fields, not just from Europe but from a lot of the rest of the world with countries like China taking great advantage of the educational system here.
Will this all balance out some day? I don't have the slightest idea. It just seems to me that education is not a commodity to be bought and sold like other things, and that education creates an enormous benefit for the entire world if it is spread evenly all over the place.
My own feeling is that it makes it clear that it should not be reserved only for those who have the most money. Education should not be a service based in selfishness, but obviously many improvements need to be made to spread it around equitably.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:14:41 GMT
Looks like there is a good chance that Québec will go back to the PQ in today's elections. However, Polls showed Quebec people were more likely to side with the government on the need for a tuition hike but were divided on an emergency law brought in place to limit demonstrations. Politicians and rights groups have said the legislation restricts civil rights. Education was hardly a major topic during the campaign, Charest seeking to focus voters on the need to maintain a stable government promoting job creation during troubled global economic times instead of electing separatists who would create uncertainty. He stressed the province has largely been spared the economic hardships seen elsewhere in the west.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 5:08:44 GMT
Hmmm... I find the situation more confusing now with armed nutcases shooting people.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 6, 2012 15:17:37 GMT
I could not believe it when I awoke yesterday to the news that a man had tried to set the building on fire where the winning candidate was giving her victory speech and that he also shot and killed a stage hand who was working that night, very disturbing and sad. This individual must be mentally disturbed to do such a horrible thing. As he was taken away by police he was shouting "the English are awakening." From what I have seen and read regarding the winning Party, their Government is rolling back the increases made to student tuition's. Some of their plans are to stiffen the language laws in the Province, offer less education in English, and mandate businesses to operate using the french language. I have seen reports of major national companies that are planning on moving out of the Province and according to reported Real Estate inquiries, people selling in Quebec and moving into Ontario and New Brunswick. Hopefully there will be a smoother transition of Government than what is being reported so far.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2012 10:48:53 GMT
I couldn't help thinking about the Québec university fee debate, because today in France, they are talking about making students pay for prep schools, which are completely free at the moment.
The reasoning behind this is that the vast majority of students who go to prep schools are from the upper classes, so they should pay.
And what will the fee be? It's going to be 181€, the same as French university tuition, starting next year probably. Scholarship students will be exempted, of course.
The article also mentioned the actual cost of education here that students would be required to pay if if were not a public service.
Each student in a prep school costs the government 15,240 euros a year, while university students only cost 10,180 euros.
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