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Post by mossie on Sept 2, 2012 8:45:17 GMT
A few of you have shown interest in my old aeroplane photos, so I thought I would give you a bit of autobiography. I was raised in a little village in darkest East Kent about 3 miles from the aerodrome at Hawkinge. When I was 7 my father took me to the Empire Air Day there in 1939, where they had a flying display, including our new wonder fighter, the Spitfire. I was instantly hooked and from then on my only ambition was to be a fighter pilot. We then had the Battle of Britain fought out above our heads, with the papers headlining the daily scores like cricket scores. So, as soon as I could , I volunteered for the RAF. Here is the story of my first 4 years www.britains-smallwars.com/Canal/fighternav.htmlWhen we finished in Egypt we were posted to another night fighter squadron in East Anglia where I took this photo After another 2½ years there I finished my time as a staff navigator on the Air Electronics School. Hope I haven't bored you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 10:56:58 GMT
Fascinating. I want more.
When did you leave the RAF?
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Post by mossie on Sept 2, 2012 13:57:51 GMT
I left the RAF on my 26th birthday in 1958 on completion of my 8 year engagement.
I forgot to add to my first post that the Meteor NF14, WS788, is still about. It is on display at the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington, just outside York.
Looking back I find it difficult to believe i can say "I was there"
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Post by onlymark on Sept 2, 2012 14:28:37 GMT
If you left in 1958 I think you must be my dad.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 2, 2012 16:07:56 GMT
Fascinating, Mossie. I was a US Air Force brat so grew up around air bases. My dad used to take us up sometimes in the small planes from various bases' flight clubs. As we moved from here to there, the travel was frequently by planes of the early 50s. So you can see for me it's a real thrill to get this look at the planes from their cockpits.
How lucky for us that you were into taking pictures, too! More, yes?
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Post by mossie on Sept 2, 2012 18:40:02 GMT
Here I am at Elvington leaning against WS788. I feel that I have been very lucky to have lived at exactly the right time. When the war was on, watching the air fighting, I longed to be up there. Now I realize that could have been a quick end. When I volunteered I had the absolute minimum educational qualifications. I had left school at 16, worked on a farm for a few months, and then left home for London to seek my fortune ;D ;D. So, after 4 jobs in 24 months, I joined the RAF, which had always been my ambition. There, as I set out in my story, I was trained as a night fighter navigator. I had been disappointed not to be selected as a pilot, but I realized that the nav/rad job suited me perfectly. The RAF selection process had been correct, but luck had brought the NF job along, I could have gone into any branch of the RAF. In addition I became crewed up with an exceptional pilot who was like a father to me and who taught me a lot. There is a saying "being in the right place at the right time", and that has certainly applied in my case. Going to Egypt again seemed like the end of the world, but it was a very life broadening experience. I will finish with a picture of my pilot and I on the left in this group of four. We are waiting to board the transport which will take us out to Egypt. Note how my pilot then is acting like a father ;D, watching his brood. Incidentally the other pilot had to be sent home after contracting TB, and the navigator was killed later in a flying accident. An all too common occurrence, about 300 aircrew died each year in flying accidents in the first half of the 1950s.
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Post by fumobici on Sept 2, 2012 19:51:04 GMT
This is an excellent series of posts, thanks so much for sharing this.
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Post by htmb on Sept 2, 2012 21:41:52 GMT
This is fabulous, Mossie. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and photos.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 2, 2012 23:18:48 GMT
I am a Canadian Air Force brat so I too really enjoyed your writing about your career Mossie! The photos are great and a nice contribution to Any Port. When I hear aircraft up above I am always searching to see what it is, sometimes by their sound I can guess pretty well. On one base we lived on we lived quite close to the tarmac, I loved it. The one man in your photo looks like the actor who plays on an American TV show called The Good Wife, his character name is Eli Gold but I can not remember his name... The second man from the right in your photo.
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Post by lugg on Sept 3, 2012 5:12:02 GMT
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Post by mossie on Sept 4, 2012 18:38:47 GMT
Thanks for showing an interest in my story, but I would stress that I was nothing exceptional and always rated "average" in assessments. Here is a picture of the squadron aircrew taken in Egypt soon after we got there. Joe is 4th and I am 5th from the right in the back row. Note the dog which was a pyard puppy, or desert mongrel, of which a pack roamed the camp scrounging for scraps. They became a nuisance and the CO ordered that all dogs be rounded up and shot. An exception would be made if the dog had a pedigree and was a recognised breed. 4th from the left at the back is our other Polish pilot, George, who had semi tamed the animal and looked after it. He was not going to see his pet shot, so he filled in the form required to save it. Where it asked for the breed he put "Hungarian sheep dog", that caused a bit of head scratching in Station headquarters because that breed did not come in the list they had, but eventually it had to go. Incidentally there were a large number of Poles in the RAF at that time, most of whom had no homes to go back to and were allowed to stay. They were in fact a very valuable part of the RAF, George and Joe generally headed the scoreboard in the frequent gunnery exercises. They were exceptionally keen and Joe was always impressing on me that we had to be the best crew. Joe had served in 3 air forces!. He was a trainee in the Polish Air Force at the outbreak of war and when the Germans overran Poland a considerable number went to France and fought with great distinction in the Battle of France. Joe was sent with several others to a French colony in North Africa to continue his training. When France capitulated the Poles came to England and joined the RAF, where Joe completed his training. He then served on Mosquito fighter bombers harassing the Germans prior to D-Day, bombing and shooting up trains and V1 sites. Poor George had a much tougher war. He was flying in the Polish Air Force and was captured by the Russians who had invaded from the east when they realized that the German invasion from the west would succeed. He went to Siberia for a couple of years until Churchill persuaded Stalin to let the Poles come to England. George then became a Spitfire pilot to be shot down over France in 1944 and spent the last 9 months of the war in a German PoW camp. He could be very short with people who crossed him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 20:45:46 GMT
It sounds like an absolutely fascinating time.
I have read quite a bit about the Suez Crisis (since it is probably the only case on record about "Great Britain and France vs. the rest of the world") and I find it immensely fascinating. There was a movie in France last year that showed the 'European' life in Alexandria before everyone had to flee (but it was not the main point of the movie), and such images are very rare. Have any British movies talked about this subject, which is usually swept under the carpet?
Having visited friends in Alexandria, I was totally amazed at the Franco-British vestiges in the city, the semi-abandoned European cemetery, and so many other things.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 4, 2012 23:08:40 GMT
We are so fortunate to be able to read your accounts of your service Mossie. Very interesting indeed.
I was a sad when I read about what had to happen to the dogs. It proves on different levels how these conflicts affect all aspects of life.
My dad did 6 months UN duty in Egypt in 1974.
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 5, 2012 9:18:02 GMT
Wandering a bit off topic, but in terms of the European expatriate/colonial life in Alexandria, I can't think of any. It's partly in Olivia Manning's Levant Trilogy, which was adapted for TV, and of course Lawrence Durrells' Alexandria Quartet (bits of which may have been filmed, but as I recall Alexandria was just the backdrop); likewise, it might have offered some local colour in various period detective stories (somehow it sounds like the sort of thing Agatha Christie would have seized on for Poirot), but nothing particularly revelatory, I'd have thought.
As for the politics of Suez, you're right, there's an interesting silence about it - given that it wrote into British politics the principle that, whatever else, we can't afford not to stick close to Washington (whereas it confirmed a basic French assumption - which I'm guessing has been there since the failure to cement the post-Versailles security structure in the early 20s - that the US is not to be relied on). It would be perfect material for a Stephen Poliakoff drama; a TV series last year called The Hour attempted something of the sort, but with some irritating slips of period detail. Somehow I don't think it's likely to be picked up for the big screen in the present day market.
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Post by mossie on Sept 5, 2012 13:18:11 GMT
Another pic which I have scratched out of the depths of my hard drive. Now my wife is in the nursing home I have time to do these things and reminisce like an old fool. Anyway, the pic, which shows close formation led by our gunnery officer. George is flying the farther machine and Joe in the machine I have taken the snap from. The original print I titled in my album at the time "The mad Russians carry Dick -----". This had been discussed in the crewroom beforehand and the idea was that if the two wingmen could keep their wingtips just behind and a little below, the ailerons of the leading aircraft, they could control the airflow over them. So by gently turning they could turn the leader, he would just have to sit there and let it happen It sort of worked for a second or two but they couldn't be stable enough for the full effect. All good clean fun ;D ;D
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Post by mossie on Sept 5, 2012 13:43:25 GMT
Patrick, you are treading on dangerous ground. The silence is deep embarrassment on the part of the British Government. Eden had been humiliated by Col Nasser and we had scuttled out of the Suez Canal Zone under a treaty signed in 1954. However Nasser then nationalised the Suez Canal Co, a French company largely owned by the British thanks to Disraeli. In concert with the Israelis and the French, we launched the invasion of 1956. The Russian bear growled, we had destroyed on the ground most of the aircraft the Russians had supplied to Nasser. The American eagle then chummed up with the bear and gave us our marching orders, so we beat an ignominious retreat.
We still had delusions of grandeur in those days but should have seen the obvious. Russia and America would henceforth call the shots. The so called "special relationship" with the US was a one way ticket and we were reduced to mere lackeys. We should have then let the US take over our old role of world policeman and quietly let them get on with. It would have saved us huge cost in lives and money in Iraq and, continuing today, in Afghanistan.
Sorry to drag world politics in. There is a good book on the subject "Road to Suez" by Michael Thornhill, which covers both my time there and the subsequent invasion.
I, in company with many thousands of others, was awarded a General Service Medal an unprecedented 50 years after the event. So I feel quite strongly on the whole subject.
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Post by patricklondon on Sept 5, 2012 13:56:02 GMT
I don't disagree, mossie. It was, as they said at the time "No end of a lesson" - not just that Britain and France had less freedom of real action than they thought, but also that the days of cooking up a secret conspiracy to disguise a war of aggression had also disappeared.
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Post by bjd on Sept 5, 2012 15:25:01 GMT
Mossie, you might be interested in a book called A Question of Honour by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud. It's about the Polish pilots who had trained just before the war in Poland, then left for France and England.
The honour was on the part of the Polish pilots, not the French and British.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 5, 2012 18:01:57 GMT
All good clean fun And you lived to tell about it! Extremely interesting, Mossie. I certainly hope you'll continue to scratch more such details "out of the depths of [the] hard drive" of your memory and your computer. The way you mix in personalities and day to day life with the time in which this took place really makes it come to life. Sorry to drag world politics in. Don't apologize for anything! It's impossible to discuss history without politics. Also, remember that for some of us the whole Suez Canal situation of the '50s was a dimly noted part of the news when we were too young to understand or care. And that kind of recent history in school textbooks usually gets a cursory treatment slanted to the needs of developing young patriots in whichever country produces the textbooks. Thanks for the book recommendations from you, from Patrick & from Bjd.
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Post by mossie on Sept 5, 2012 18:24:53 GMT
Many thanks bjd for the book recommendation. Now on order from Amazon. I am pleased that some find my little tales interesting, I can assure you everything is true. Will dredge up one or two more in a day or so. Just don't make me big headed
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Post by htmb on Sept 5, 2012 18:34:23 GMT
I also find your stories fascinating, mossie. Keep 'em coming.
My dad was a radarman in the US Navy and was on a sub and a destroyer from 1941 - 44/45. I know he was at Normandy and later at Toulon, but I have very limited information about his experiences. He died at the age of 68 and, almost twenty years later, I'm so sorry I never had much conversation with him about his experiences. I'm sure many of his memories were very painful ones, and that was why he just didn't talk, but I would have loved to have heard the good stories, too. Fortunately, he kept a bit of a scrapbook with pictures and a log, so I have been able to piece together some information.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 5, 2012 18:47:08 GMT
So true about not mining the memories of people who lived through history, Htmb. My dad was a ferry pilot during WWII & was stationed in Egypt part of that time. I remember his telling me that it was like Terry & the Pirates.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 5, 2012 22:31:16 GMT
I was visiting with my parents today and we talked about his time in Egypt. He reminded me that 1974 was his second UN deployment. His first was in 1958 when he was in the Navy prior to re mustering to the Air Force. He was on the Magnificent, a Canadian Aircraft carrier. They were under the UN flag and he was there for over 6 months.
My dad loves to talk about his service. He has many photos in his workshop of the ships he was on, next time I will take some photos of them to post here.
Your photos are amazing, how fortunate that you were able to take so many photos in flight.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 6, 2012 6:02:20 GMT
Just a little coincidence. I was at the library yesterday browsing through the books for sale. I had this one in hand, then decided not to take it. Now, after reading through this thread today, I'm hoping it will still be there when I go back. www.nytimes.com/2007/08/10/books/10book.html?pagewanted=all
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Post by bjd on Sept 6, 2012 9:33:24 GMT
That looks like an interesting book, Bixa.
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Post by mossie on Sept 6, 2012 14:12:00 GMT
Mich, you say your old dad loves talking about his service experiences. I know the feeling and this is what this thread is all about. I find myself increasingly going back to those days, my life since I left the RAF has passed in a blur. Some good times some bad, but "That's life" as they say. The link I gave in my first post covers my first 4 years in the "mob", as people referred to the RAF in those days. But I now consider those four years to have been my university education In fact when we were leaving the navigation school our chief instructor said that what we had gone through was the equivalent of a university degree. Repeating that got me my most life changing job once I had left the service ;D ;D. Anyway when I got onto my first squadron I found there was still a lot to learn. Our aircraft carried four 20mm cannon and we did quite a lot of gunnery practice. Here are our armourers reloading those guns. The man bent over on the right is cuddling the "belt feed mechanism". This was a cylinder, much like on a cowboy sixgun, which carried the first 7 rounds with a few trailing. The ones trailing were to link up to the rest of the ammo which was carried in a box above the gun. The whole contraption was then attached to the gun and the first round fed into the breech ready for the pilot to press the Fire button. There is also a man up on the wing who I guess is refuelling, another stands with a piece of paper checking something and it is just possible to see somebody's foot trailing out of the cockpit door at the top of the ladder. Note the ladder is very narrow with only sufficient width for one foot at a time. I was fascinated by all aspects of guns and we had an excellent gunnery leader on the squadron. He gave the pilots lectures on how to shoot and on the ballistics of the gun so that we could beat the other night fighter squadron on the camp. And we always did, much to the chagrin of the other CO ;D ;D There was considerable rivalry between the two squadrons. I will have a try later to relate some of the antics this led to.
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Post by mich64 on Sept 6, 2012 14:41:21 GMT
I agree that it would be like a university education, a very intense co-op learning experience. We have friends who this summer took their son to the RMC as he wishes a military career either as an engineer or a pilot. From their experience there it sure sounds like an intense commitment.
Eager to hear the stories of your squadrons challenged each other.
Incredible photo! You should write a book yourself, your experiences and the accompanying photos would surely attract a publisher.
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Post by mossie on Sept 7, 2012 19:20:27 GMT
Inter squadron rivalry. The RAF, and I suppose all military units, always stressed "esprit de corps", which roughly translated reads "We are the best". This could lead to strong rivalry between units, especially of the same type. On our station we had two night fighter squadrons, nos 39 and 219, and a photo recce squadron, of the NF squadrons, each had to be the best, of course. My squadron, 39, had a high proportion of NCO aircrew because the other squadron CO considered NCOs to be an inferior breed and tried not to have any. He still suffered from the public school snobbery which was common in the RAF, and the rest of the country, at that time. However his nose was put out of joint as I described above, because our gunnery scores were invariably higher. Worse still, his squadron had periods of being classified as non-operational, i.e. not up to scratch. An occasion arose when the station had to lay on a display for a large gaggle of senior Army officers. One of our tasks was to demonstrate air to air firing. The Pole George was given the task of towing off the target flag. This was a white canvas sheet with a spreader bar at the front which was weighted so that the flag flew upright. This flag would be laid out on the runway, the tug aircraft was marshalled up to it and the tow line attached. The tug then took of and once the flag was airborne it turned up. George surreptitiously got the groundcrew to paint, in large letters, the words "BUM TO 219" on the flag. This of course was plainly visible to the assembled brass and caused considerable hilarity and gnashing of teeth ;D ;D. A gang of 219's officers plotted revenge. Our squadron badge was a winged bomb, alluding to its role in the 20's of pacifying tribes men in the NW frontier of India running into Afghanistan, by bombing their villages if they caused trouble. Of course they were warned by leaflets first, but it all helped harmonious relations. ;D ;D Any way, we had two old bombs, stood on their tails in front of our squadron offices, and the 219 boys stole one of these one night. Not being too bright they hid it in the boot of a car belonging to one of the PR pilots, which was parked outside the officers mess. He realized immediately what was dragging his car down so collected some of his mates and they took the bomb down to the beach and buried it. When the balloon went up the next day the car owner pleaded total ignorance. So a great bomb hunt took place We were up in arms of course. 219 squadron badge was a Deaths Head hawk moth and their CO had a stuffed one in a fancy glass case in his office, complete with its imposing Latin name. Somebody from our side got an old cigar box, and hung a Mothak (a moth repellent chemical) in this box, with the inscription "Mothicum Ballicus" underneath. They then broke into the office, pinched the Deaths Head and case, and substituted the new one. All hell broke loose 219s CO went crying to the station commander, and the squadron leaders had their heads banged together, and were instructed that hostilities must cease immediately and all property returned forthwith. All very entertaining and childish while it lasted, but it helped to ease the pain of young men cooped up without female company.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 8, 2012 4:08:08 GMT
That looks like an interesting book, Bixa. Went back today & it was still there, so I snagged it! In fact when we were leaving the navigation school our chief instructor said that what we had gone through was the equivalent of a university degree. Repeating that got me my most life changing job once I had left the service . And we'll find out what that was during the course of this narrative? You should write a book yourself, your experiences and the accompanying photos would surely attract a publisher. Ditto! Somebody from our side got an old cigar box, and hung a Mothak (a moth repellent chemical) in this box, with the inscription "Mothicum Ballicus" underneath. They then broke into the office, pinched the Deaths Head and case, and substituted the new one. That's hysterical. Keep the stories coming, please, Mossie!
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Post by onlymark on Sept 8, 2012 11:39:57 GMT
Mossie, the big question is, did the supplies of Brylcream ever run out?
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