Seceding from the United States

[Deleted]

I was going to just add this to the "American elections" thread, but then I thought it might deserve a discussion of its own. There are numerous petitions underway in a lot of the conservative states to secede from the United States, just because some people are so horrified at the results of the presidential election. Normally, in a democracy, you are supposed to accept the results of an election, but sometimes people think that they have reached the last straw of endurance.

So, what about these secession petitions?

As unlikely as the idea appears, countries have broken up before in very recent history -- Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the USSR, Sudan -- and perhaps Belgium, the UK, Spain or Canada within the next 20 years.

All of these events started out as extremely minority movements, but little by little, they grew in popularity.

And of course, let us not forget that the United States already split up once in the past.

Can you imagine something like this ever happening again?

[fumobici]

In my cynical moments shedding the medieval, resource leeching, freeriding ex Dixie states plus the sagebrush intermountain West that contains mostly endless sagebrush, sand and stupidity seems like a win-win. They can go back to slavery, legal racism, gunfights in the streets, hanging judges and fundamentalist religion and we can get on with the 21st century.

[lola]

My impression is that most of these are states that have gotten more in government money than they paid in taxes.

Tempting to call their bluff, of course. The signatures represent just a fraction of their populations, though. Texas has been beating its chest about seceding pretty much forever (see Todd Palin).

[rikita]

funny part is, how'd they react if it was the other way around...

but as for your other examples you named - at least czechoslovakia had only even been one country for much less than 100 years when they broke up.

[mossie]

The UK is a case in point. I had occasion to remind people that it comprises:--
The Itinerant Irish
The Scrounging Scots
The Whining Welsh
All under the jackboot of
The Evil English

First of all of course, is to free ourselves of the Useless EU

[auntieannie]

I saw a film a few years ago. It was a fiction presented as a report on daily life in North America if General Lee's troops had won... it was terribly scary for all kind of reasons.

Nobody mentioned Switzerland's inner battles with secession... probably because you are not aware of it.

Thankfully, usually after some animated debate people realise that it is easier together. we're already so small that if we get any smaller it can only get worse. A few will grumble secession dreams under the influence of some local alcohol, but that's mostly it. I believe the worst was when the french-speaking Jura wanted out of mainly german-speaking Bern. It became the last canton to join the confederation (to this day) in 1979.

[Deleted]

I have seen such films and also read a number of speculative novels on the same theme, but of course they are always selling a sensationalist agenda. Although I doubt it, one might imagine that the southern U.S. states might have abolished slavery on their own if their economy had continued to boom. After all they were not impervious to what was happening (and why) in countries like Great Britain, France, Brazil and Haiti. Without the Civil War, the southern states might have dominated the north economically, and what would have happened then?

But as I said, I don't really think so.

However, it is what makes speculation about secession in modern times interesting. Texas could survive because of its oil (and agriculture and other industries) for a certain amount of time and might even thrive. I also remember from history class that when it joined the Union, it retained the possibility of dividing itself into 5 different states at some time in the future. What would the U.S. Senate be like with 10 senators from Texas? (North Texas, South Texas, East Texas, West Texas, Central Texas) I never forgot that little detail and I wonder if there is any (legal) way to stop them if they decide to do that some day.

The thought of any other state seceding is rather laughable, but if the Republic of Idaho or the Republic of Montana ever happen, they at least have sufficient natural resources and territory to survive. One can even assume that they would get loads of immigrants. Probably not of the darker kind, though.

[Kimby]

Perhaps Montana and Idaho could flip a coin to see which of the two secedes and let the rest of us normal folks move to the state that remains in the union. There are a few normal folks in these states, BTW.

[Deleted]

Yes, we know that, Kimby, and we commiserate.

[patricklondon]

As it happens, I've just finished reading Norman Davies's "Vanished Kingdoms", all about examples of different states that have come and gone in Europe since the end of the Roman Empire (not all of then, thank goodness, but still a big book, especially when it gets into the complexities of the Kingdoms/Duchies/Counties of Burgundy or the ins and outs of Poland/Lithuania/Prussia). A useful reminder that there is nothing fixed or eternal in any given nation state structure, but also that there are often entirely unintended consequences once things start to change. For one thing, the neighbours get ideas. If Texas wanted to leave, wouldn't Mexico remember it has a prior claim?

[htmb]

That looks like a very interesting book, Patrick. Maybe something I'd like to read.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 12:23:34 GMT auntieannie said:

Nobody mentioned Switzerland's inner battles with secession... probably because you are not aware of it.

I have read more than once that Geneva often gets very fed up with Swiss politics and that there is a very small movement which has a project to get attached to France, with with it shares about 95% of its city limits, so it is really only attached to Switzerland by a thread.

And of course there is that weird idea about Wallonia becoming part of France if Belgium breaks up. While France is of course somewhat flattered, such a thing would almost certainly create far more problems than it could possibly solve.

But what Patrick wrote is true -- national borders as well as entire nations can be quite ephemeral as history has constantly attested. Europe is an absolute hotbed of separatist movements, but so is Asia. After all, Singapore split from Malaysia and East Timor ripped itself free of Indonesia.

[auntieannie]

And what about Céligny, K2?

Somehow, even though I understand the tensions in Europe - what with the borders being drawn right in the middle of ethnic regions most of the time, I thought we had transcended the passion for good social and economical reason. (if that makes sense?).

We hopefully all learnt from the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh. It was in 1949 and the repercussions of these events are still felt today. What a shame!

[Deleted]

Actually, that was the creation of Pakistan and East Pakistan. Bangladesh dates only from 1971.

I'm afraid that Geneva might have to leave Céligny behind if it leaves. Yet France tolerates the Spanish enclave of Llivia on its soil without acrimony.

[bjd]

Thanks for mentioning that book, Patrick. I didn't know Norman Davies had a new book out. Just ordered it.

[bixaorellana]

Too lazy to look this up at the moment, but I'm relatively certain that when Texas gained statehood, it was given the right to divide itself into more than one state if it wished. I suppose this is because it's so big. Not the same as seceding, but singular nonetheless.

[Deleted]

.... as I mentioned in #6 ....

[bixaorellana]

I SAID I was lazy!

[auntieannie]

you are right obviously, but East Pakistan mostly changed name in 1971, didn't it? the actual physical separation (or most of it at least - and the bloodshed and heartache that accompanied it) happened in 1949/50?

[Deleted]

Pakistan in two pieces so far apart was doomed to fail no matter what. There is no way to forge a feeling of nation, particularly in a relatively poor country where there would never be the possibility of the vast majority of citizens ever getting a chance to see the other part of the country.

I am amazed that France manages to hold on to 5 overseas departments (Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guyane, Réunion and Mayotte) with practically nothing in common other than using the same currency and stamps. Of course, the money pump holds a certain attraction compared to becoming independent and sinking into instant poverty. And of course the same sort of thing would happen to quite a few of the American states if they were to break off from the country.

[auntieannie]

don't forget a different language as well!

[kerouac2]

Perhaps it is time for Texas to go all the way on its independence from the rest of the country, even if Ted Cruz has to set up a government in exile at the Ritz Carlton in Cancun in the meantime.

[questa]

The State of Western Australia has been trying to secede since the turn of the 20th century. Many politicians have tried but Canberra won't listen. WA covers about 1/3 of the country, has all the minerals, shipping and is self sufficient...in fact they are sick of having to bail out the Eastern States Their capital is closer to Asia than Eastern States and holds the record of the loneliest city because there is only dust and desert between the rest of the Australia and the West. There are many good reasons to cut loose from WA...only sentiment will stop it...eventually

[casimira]

Kind of off topic but somewhat germane to the OP.
For many years there has been a movement to make Washington, DC a separate state.
Perhaps eventually it will. 

[bjd]

Isn't that so they can be represented in Congress? I believe they aren't at the moment.

[kerouac2]

Yes, actually the subject have been reactivated recently. If the existing states have their say, I am quite sure that the "red" states will be in complete opposition to the idea, but I would be interested in discovering what official argument they would use, because it won't be as valid as the reasons for ignoring the Puerto Rican request for statehood.