Religious Freedom

[Deleted]

I remember as a child the controversy caused by Madalyn Murray O'Hair who was the first famous atheist to challenge religion in the United States. She is responsible for the end of religious activity in public school in the United States since 1962 (Supreme Court ruling). Frankly, until I looked this up, I didn't know that she was kidnapped, murdered and mutilated along with her son and granddaughter in 1995.

"Back then" I just thought she was a troublemaker until my own opinion about religion evolved. After moving to France, it should be mentioned that I worked for one of the most Islamic companies in the world for 35 years, so I am super well versed in both Islam and the hypocrisy of many of its followers.

Therefore, I was somewhat delighted to see that in the Algerian city of Tizi Ouzou, there was a rebellion this week against the oligatory observation of Ramadan fasting, which has become more and more important since 9/11 after the reaction of the western world to Islam. In fact I was a bit shocked last week when I went to have lunch with a former colleague, and one of the new employees whom I had hired before leaving told me that she was observing Ramadan and was therefore not permitted to kiss me as usual but she could shake my hand. What a bunch of absolute bullshit!

Anyway, there is a bit of hope due to the Tizi Ouzou incident, where about 500 secular Algerians had a picnic at lunch time, drank beverages and smoked cigarettes in the middle of the day to show that the obligatory observation of Ramadan was total crap. Here is an article about it in French: Tizi Ouzou protest.

In France, there have been countless incidents where secular Muslims have been harrassed by "guardians of the faith" for not following all of the rules. I have quite a few friends of Muslim origin who eat pork, drink alcohol and do plenty of other things not authorized by the Koran, and I really hope that in the future nothing will happen to force them into doing things against their own concept of individual liberty.

[lagatta]

Yes, I was happy to see this. There was a rally in support of them by secular Algerians here in Montréal.

As you say, this fundamentalism and meddling in the affairs of others is not restricted to one single faith; there have been nasty incidents among fundamentalist Christians and Jews as well. Fundamentalist Islam was on the rise for political reasons including the rise of the Gulf States, as well as the fact that the Mosque was the only place dissidents could gather in many countries under authoritarian rule (like the Church in Poland, with similar socially-regressive outcomes) and it is now being challenged in several places, but is of course fighting back.

[bjd]

I agree that fundamentalists (aka fanatics) of any religion are harmful.

I was also suprised to learn recently that people defining themselves as atheists and agnostics are only 6% of the US population. Personally, I don't see whose business religion is, even for census reasons.

It's sad that people have to make a political statement out of the fact that they don't follow religious rulings, like the eaters/smokers in Algeria. I'm sure they had lots of critics and few supporters.

[Deleted]

Today, French schools posted a new "charter of secularism" in all establishments, pending the return of obligatory civics lessons next year.

The main points include the concept that no student can opt out of any obligatory class for religious reasons, no religious symbols can be worn on the school premises, there is total equality of the sexes, and liberty of conscience is fully respected.

As usual, this is all based on the French concept of "liberty from religion" rather than the idea of liberty of religion that prevails in some other countries.

School kids will receive this to bring home to their parents.

[lagatta]

Yes, but it isn't "more stalinist than Stalin" Albania either (as in "more Catholic than the Pope"). It does respect freedom of conscience:

3. La laïcité garantit la liberté de conscience à tous. Chacun est libre de croire ou de ne pas croire. Elle permet la libre expression de ses convictions, dans le respect de celles d'autrui et dans les limites de l'ordre public.

You just can't ram it down the others' throats, or obviously, set off bombs, kill medical staff providing contraception or abortions, or spit on women who aren't "dressed enough".

tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/education/20130909.OBS6048/charte-de-la-laicite-a-l-ecole-ce-que-dit-le-texte.html

This is a major controversy here right now.

[Deleted]

Some articles have pointed out that France remains more relaxed about certain things like still celebrating Christmas rather than just an unnamed "holiday season" in December. In any case, a large percentage of the local Muslim population celebrates Christmas as well, just because the children find it enjoyable.

[lagatta]

Yes, I know quite a few Jewish and Muslim Frenchpersons who celebrate Christmas and New Year's. With no more religious content than among the multi-generationally-lapsed "Catholics".

Lots of good food though...

[rikita]

hm, without knowing much about it, i must say that my first impression is that saying "all religious symbols are forbidden in school" is not neutral, when there are some religions where some of the symbols are seen as essential to many members (no matter now, whether the koran says to cover your hair or not) while others don't... especially since i fear the result might also be, that some girls might end up dropping out of school, if they really don't want to leave their hair uncovered (and from what i read, some schools are also forbidding options like wearing a bandana instead). what happens btw. if someone who is still young enough for compulsory school attendance is thrown out of school due to refusing to go without a religious symbol?

i realize there have to be lines to be drawn (for example, i don't really agree with students opting out of classes, because else i'd have invented a religion for myself where math is forbidden), just that i find the practicalities difficult ... and with clothing a lot of interpretations are possible, because it is always also a piece of clothing, and cultural tradition and religion mixes in them...

what, for example, if a religious group demanded of their women to always wear long skirts, because making out the shape of a woman's legs is sinful - would that mean, that long skirts could not be worn in school anymore?

[Deleted]

In France, for example, it appears that nearly all of the Muslim girls who wanted to wear a scarf have chosen to abide by the national rules, and the scarf is taken off during classes. As for the small minority who do not want to take off their scarf, most of them go to Catholic schools or even Jewish schools, where scarves are allowed (there are very few Muslim schools available in France).

The curriculum is identical in all of these schools, as per French law. Anything related to religion can only take place outside of class time.

Usually, it is sufficient for the local imam to inform the family that the Coran has no requirements regarding head scarves, only the concept of "modesty." Since the contradictors are unable to find any sura that can contradict this -- since none exist -- it is just assumed that anybody who insists on this sort of headgear or garb is not a true Muslim.

[rikita]

which then makes one wonder if it is a religious symbol and thus really falls under the law, though ...

so the law only applies to state schools, not all schools?

[Deleted]

Yes, the law is for state schools only. But every school must have an identical curriculum to the state schools. And the private schools are not free (even if the cost is not enormous). So basically, these families must pay extra if they insist on the pupils dressing differently.

[lagatta]

What happens if someone is wearing a scarf due to chemotherapy or alopecia?

[Deleted]

Then they have a doctor's certificate.

[Deleted]

The French government has started a propaganda campaign against young people who join the jihad in Syria. Frankly, I approve of it even though it only shows the pain of parents who have "lost" their children. But I am wondering if people in other countries find this inappropriate in the name of freedom of religion. I don't really consider it to be the issue, since it is a question of "perversion of religion" if you disagree with the jihadists. But France is criticised so often for taking restrictive measures against religion, notably by the UK and the US, I wondering what the concept of "freedom" is elsewhere.

The clips that are being shown on television show parents talking about their children who left and in some cases died.

[lagatta]

Those are very hard to hear. We have a boy here who is only 15; he was also from a privileged, professional background and attended a prestigious private school. His family is from Morocco. He held up a dépanneur (corner shop) and stole quite a bit of money - he must have known when there was money on the premises. The parents had already confiscated his passport and blocked his bank account.

The local youth court is near my place; cycling past it, there were lots of reporters and camera crews trying to get some news, though it is heavily censored in the case of a minor.

[mickthecactus]

I'm afraid religion has an awful lot to answer for.

[patricklondon]

Oct 7, 2015 20:45:43 GMT kerouac2 said:

The French government has started a propaganda campaign against young people who join the jihad in Syria. Frankly, I approve of it even though it only shows the pain of parents who have "lost" their children. But I am wondering if people in other countries find this inappropriate in the name of freedom of religion. I don't really consider it to be the issue, since it is a question of "perversion of religion" if you disagree with the jihadists. But France is criticised so often for taking restrictive measures against religion, notably by the UK and the US, I wondering what the concept of "freedom" is elsewhere.

Of course there are government programmes in the UK aimed at identifying young people at risk of jihadist radicalisation (to the point of trying to go to Syria to join ISIS or make up their own attempts at violence at home). No-one would argue that freedom of religion extends as far as that: even the jihadists wouldn't be interested in arguing their case on those grounds, because they just believe they're justified and that's all they need.

But there is debate about whether the government's latest proposals to extend the programme to "non-violent extremism" go too farand risk alienating and stigmatising people who would otherwise do no harm. What sounds fine described on paper can be anything but when it's implemented by unimaginative and insensitive jobsworths.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28939555
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/23/prevent-counter-terrorism-strategy-schools-demonising-muslim-children

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[onlyMark]

Religion is like a man with a penis.
He knows he's got one. I know he's got one, but as soon as he whips it out and flashes it in my face talking about how great it is, that's when I want to choke him on it.

[bixaorellana]

It's hard for me to say, since the OP videos are in French, but I cannot imagine any young people bothering to watch them &, even if they did, thinking, "Oh dear -- it would cause my parents pain if I were to join a violent wacko group outside of my own culture so I won't do it." I'm not against the campaign, nor do I see it as infringing upon freedom of religion. It just doesn't seem as though it would be effective.

Patrick's comments and the first link in his post (the 2nd is a 404) pinpoint the stupidity of clueless government programs throwing money at a poorly identified target.

My impulse would be to mount a campaign showing Jihadist atrocities in the hope that it would open potential adherents' eyes to what they'd be getting into. The flaw in that idea is that apparently many young people -- particularly girls -- are attracted to ISIS for that very brutality.

[Deleted]

Well, actually those videos are being shown on television and in cinemas with the trailers.

[lagatta]

For teenagers, wouldn't it be more effective to show neighbourhood and school friends of the young "jihadie" who don't understand whatever came over their mate?

[Deleted]

Who knows? From all of the articles I've read, they have dumped their old friends for the "new friends" and about the only thing with even the slightest bit of hold on them is Mama's love. Even though they are jihad happy, most of them are a bit upset that they are causing Mama to suffer. After all, one of the strongest rules of Islam is "respect."

[bixaorellana]

What is the phone number at the end of the video for? If it takes jiggling the kids' sentimentality to make them come to their senses, why not? I can't see that it infringes on freedom of religion, since it's not targeting religion, but alienation from the family and violence in the name of religion.

(with the caveat that I don't understand French)

[Deleted]

It is a help line for families, because besides trying to get the children to come home, the families need psychological support especially when bad things happen. One of the videos said that one day they got a phone call from Syria and thought they would have the privilege of talking to their son. Instead it was someone happily announcing "your son has become a martyr for the cause." And the mother says what was even worse (if you can imagine that) is that they referred to him only by his jihadi name, as though his entire earlier life counted for zip.

[bixaorellana]

Probably one should read more than this one article from The Guardian, which veers from pure journalism, before trying to form an opinion, but:

... pork has become the new battleground in [France’s] uneasy debate over national identity and the place of Islam. Bacon and sausage school dinners are being used by rightwing politicians to hammer home what it means to be French. Court battles and vicious political spats have erupted as protesters warn that controversial menu changes are sending a message to Muslim or Jewish children that to be truly French, they must eat roast pork. Politicians, as they go to war over the ham on school dinner plates, are fighting about the true meaning of French secularism ...

Full article: www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/pork-school-dinners-france-secularism-children-religious-intolerance?CMP=fb_gu

[Deleted]

Frankly, very few schools out of the mass of schools in France are concerned, but of course if one happens to be living in one of the towns concerned, it can be very important. Unfortunately, as the article points out, all of this is more for political reasons than religious reasons. Plenty of Muslims and Jews in France ate pork with gusto for many decades before dietary demands became a way to make a political statement. Naturally, plenty of others have always avoided pork, which is relatively easy to do in most cases.

Some of the more reasonable politicians have been suggesting a more consensual solution by asking that all schools propose a vegetarian option every day, which would allow children of any faith or lack of faith another possibility. In any case, the problem is going to fester until the next presidential and legislative elections in 2017.

[bixaorellana]

Considering the general magnificence of the school lunches*, why not sidestep the problem by offering a choice of two entrees every day & avoid pork appetizers? But really, the vegetarian option suggestion is reasonable & easy to implement. It's just a shame that this kind of political grand-standing is played out over the heads of children. It would be a non-issue if the non-pork option weren't already common. Like right-wingers everywhere, the pork-or-else politicians care more for winning through divisiveness than they do for the common good.

*That wasn't sarcasm. Looking at the lunch menus, I couldn't help but think of the Woody Allen movie "Love & Death". Woody/Boris is thrown into a Napoleanic era prison & quips, "Fortunately, it was a French jail, so the food was not bad" as a pastry cart is wheeled into his cell. Like many people here, I recall the horror of most school meals I endured. Maybe I'm not too old to enroll in a French primary school.

[whatagain]

The Pope has decided same sex people living together could be blessed.
Case per case but nevertheless a gigantic step in a good direction.
Imo.
I like this Pope.