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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 20:58:41 GMT
Things are looking really, really bad.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 22:53:25 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Feb 21, 2014 2:25:59 GMT
thanks, kerouac. On top of everything else it looks bloody cold. The Ukranian Olympians have returned home. There are a lot of people of Ukranian descent in Canada, in particular the Prairie provinces (yep, cold winters and lots of wheat...). When the video of the young lady winds up, I get "related" videos, in French and English, many about such charming things as Ukraine as a sex tour destination. What the? ....
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Post by bjd on Feb 21, 2014 7:21:06 GMT
Yes, terrible things going on there. And Putin (and the Ukrainian president) talking about fighting "terrorists". A catch-all term used to describe anyone who disagrees with them.
I saw in today's paper that the US and EU will block bank accounts and not issue visas to those running the repression. They have to do that quickly -- not sit around and discuss it.
No sex tour video links for me here, lagatta, but it's still easy to find ads for "East European women" looking for men in W Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 15:23:35 GMT
Here is a "before and after" photo montage of Maidan Square that has been circulating on the web today.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 20:02:14 GMT
I would like to be able to say that things have moved faster than expected, but I'm sure that the dissidents of the Ukraine would not agree, since this part of the struggle began last November. And we all thought that it would unfortunately die out as these things generally do, like in Turkey and so many other places. It is really great to see that determination and bravery can conquer evil in the end.
Of course, nothing proves so far that there will be a happy ending.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 22:31:55 GMT
Oh wow, the photos they have been showing of the presidential residence remind me both of Michael Jackson's Wonderland and also the lovely Romanian couple of Elena and Nicolae Ceaușescu. It's making me impatient to see what will be uncovered about that Hungarian bastard when he finally falls from power.
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Post by lagatta on Feb 23, 2014 0:26:32 GMT
I haven't seen those yet - there really is a "dictatorial kitsch" style. In hot countries such as Haiti and the Philippines, it involves serious air conditioning and utterly superfluous fur coats. I hate to think of North Korea...
So many of those Hungarian fascist types turn out to have some Jewish or Roma ("Gypsy") blood, which is not surprising as Central Europe is incredibly cosmopolitan, which should be seen as an enrichment.
bjd, I still remember interpreting at a gathering in Central Italy, and returning late at night (a colleague was driving me back to where I was staying), at every bus stop there was a beautiful but anxious looking blonde girl, waiting for her "bus" (there were no night buses past 1 am in this small Italian city). This was almost certainly human trafficking.
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Post by bjd on Feb 23, 2014 7:20:21 GMT
We have those young women here too, Lagatta. All along the street/canal that runs toward the train station. Not all East European because there are quite a few black women too.
I was interested to see the locals visiting the presidential residence -- just walking around, looking in the windows. No vandalism, no trashing. Taking pictures of each other with their cell phones. The house is built of wood, of course on a really grandiose scale, so I wouldn't compare to the Romanian couple's palace.
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Post by bjd on Feb 23, 2014 7:49:49 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Feb 23, 2014 10:40:19 GMT
Yes, I'm impressed by the polite, non-vandalizing visitors. I actually liked the outside architecture of the house, which I suppose respects Ukranian cultural traditions. There is a famous hotel betweeen Montréal and Ottawa, Château Montebello, built in a similar style, think it was by lumber and rail barons. I actually worked at a conference there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 13:43:10 GMT
An eye-opener of a thread. Thanks for putting this up, Kerouac, it's a story that needs to be heard.
The contrast between the video that Kerouac put up and bjd put up is quite startling. I think it's a good thing that we can't accept the inequalities that exist, not only there but in other parts of the world too.
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Post by waterhazardjack on Feb 24, 2014 1:33:55 GMT
Oh wow, the photos they have been showing of the presidential residence remind me both of Michael Jackson's Wonderland and also the lovely Romanian couple of Elena and Nicolae Ceaușescu. It's making me impatient to see what will be uncovered about that Hungarian bastard when he finally falls from power. Only problem is that if you look at the opposition and Yulia Tymoshenko - the darling of the West - in particular, she actually lives in equally palatial surroundings with as many questions about the origin of her mega-wealth as all the other contenders. Which Hungarian b*****d do you mean, Kerouac? Viktor Orban? Or Nicolas Sarkozy?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 7:11:43 GMT
In France at least, the opposition favourite in Ukraine is Vitaly Klitschko, not the braided lady. Obviously, it will probably not be possible to completely avoid her future involvement in government, but everybody is aware of her ill-gained riches.
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Post by patricklondon on Feb 24, 2014 7:28:37 GMT
I get the impression that, not for the first time in such situations, the apparent political leaders with some past electoral authority are scrabbling to catch up with pressure from the streets, and it's by no means certain whether those people are represented by any one potential candidate (and some of them are extreme nationalists with some very unpleasant antecedents). My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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Post by bjd on Feb 24, 2014 7:55:32 GMT
I have talked about this with a Canadian/Ukrainian friend, who often travels there and knows many academics in Kiev and Lviv. When I asked him what he thought of Tymoshenko in 2012 (last time we talked about this), he said he didn't think much of her, but only that she was preferable to Yanukovich. In general, he is not impressed by any of Ukraine's politicians, and considers them all corrupt.
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Post by mossie on Feb 24, 2014 8:49:35 GMT
This is a real disaster area, Ukraine was originally part of Russia, BUT not this Ukraine. Like Poland and Germany and the other countries of this immediate region, the last century has seen enormous shifts of population and borders. The result is that what is now Ukraine is a real muddle with all sorts of ethnic groups living side by side. I am no expert but there are Russians, Poles, Hungarians, not to mention the original Cossacks, and others, all jumbled together. To expect a unified country to appear will take a miracle, especially now that the Russian/EU argument is taking place. Brace yourselves for the chance that this is the trigger for WW3, god forbid.
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Post by patricklondon on Feb 25, 2014 7:21:11 GMT
I thought Stalin had sorted out most of the population/territorial issues in that part of the world (Poles, Hungarians, Ruthenians) in his own inimitable way (i.e., expelling or deporting them), but the major problem is the Crimea and Russian-speaking East, which Khruschchev's regime transferred to Ukraine for reasons best known to themselves. It may be that the price of Russia holding back is letting the Crimea declare nominal independence under Russian "protection", as in the Caucasus - and indeed, Moldova on the other side of the Ukraine. But it all depends who's in a position to persuade Putin. My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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Post by bjd on Feb 25, 2014 7:44:26 GMT
Wasn't Moldova refusing to give in to Russia over something recently? Maybe signing the agreement with the EU?
I think it's Transdniestria where the USSR still lives.
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Post by patricklondon on Feb 27, 2014 10:23:59 GMT
I stand corrected: Moldova/Moldavia speaks (more or less) Rumanian and the people on the other side of the river speak Russian. My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 1, 2014 3:12:07 GMT
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Post by waterhazardjack on Mar 5, 2014 2:51:27 GMT
I get the impression that, not for the first time in such situations, the apparent political leaders with some past electoral authority are scrabbling to catch up with pressure from the streets, and it's by no means certain whether those people are represented by any one potential candidate (and some of them are extreme nationalists with some very unpleasant antecedents). I thought Stalin had sorted out most of the population/territorial issues in that part of the world (Poles, Hungarians, Ruthenians) in his own inimitable way (i.e., expelling or deporting them), but the major problem is the Crimea and Russian-speaking East, which Khruschchev's regime transferred to Ukraine for reasons best known to themselves. It may be that the price of Russia holding back is letting the Crimea declare nominal independence under Russian "protection", as in the Caucasus - and indeed, Moldova on the other side of the Ukraine. But it all depends who's in a position to persuade Putin. Read more: anyportinastorm.proboards.com/post/187852/quote/6981#ixzz2v37ALy85My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam" All good points, Patrick. Certainly the 'new Ukrainian movement' contains many unsavoury elements. Also, the decision of the new government to strip the Russian language of its official status on its first day of business - despite being the first tongue of approx 40% of the population - was nothing short of madness, whipping up fears within the ethnic Russian population and just the excuse Moscow would have needed to take a closer interest in Ukrainian affairs. Crimea already 'enjoys' a high degree of autonomy but, as you say, it will probably now increase its degree of 'self-determination' and perhaps become a Russian 'protectorate', either explicitly or implicitly, along the lines of Abhkazia or Transniestra. The east of Ukraine is a different matter as although mostly Russian-speaking, this is split between Ukrainians and Russians. It shouldn't be forgotten that in the referendum of 1991, the majority in favour of independence was over 90% and not a 60/40 or 80/20 split along language or ethnic lines. Despite what's being peddled in Washington, London and Brussels, Putin is playing another masterhand and by the time this is over will have secured what he considers vital Russian interests, with minimum resistance and maximum embarrassment and impotence inflicted on his adversaries - both in his 'Near Abroad' and further away. As in Georgia in 2008, he has been underestimated and 'mishandled'. The EU in particular has nothing to offer Ukraine and in any kind of stand-off will fold immediately with various countries protecting their Russian investments (inward/outward) and dependency on energy from the same source. Being lectured by Ashton and Von Rumpuy will only engender mirth in the Kremlin... What now for Ukraine? Certainly, they are cursed by the military lease that Russia has at Sevastopol but without it, Russia might have made independence impossible for them in 1991 or partitioned the country, there and then - as Britain did to my own country Ireland, in 1920/22. When the dust settles (as it will, this will not lead to a greater conflict), Ukraine will probably be "Finlandised' (neutered, a la Finland in Soviet times). Although this may appear unjust and a huge blow to Kiev's self-esteem, it may be the least worst solution, in the longer term. The reality is that if Russia switches off its supply of gas, then the state is barely viable, never mind the massive debt that is accumulating and turning it into a Eurasian Argentina waiting to happen. As regards future politics, that's a hard one to predict. Yulia Tymoshenko's return may exacerbate the ethnic tensions that are already there, if her ally Yatsenyuk's already divisive premiership is anything to go by. It may prove to be better if Vitali Klitschko or some other political ingenue was to assume power with none of the previous baggage that has turned Ukrainian politics into a zero-sum game, with potentially disastrous consequences. By the way, nothing I've written above should be interpreted as being pro-Russian in outlook. As a previous visitor to Ukraine (and maybe returning in June), I am an admirer of its people and nationalist movement. My reservations concern the motives and competence of its leaders and the realpolitik of its geographical position, buffered between the EU, NATO and a resurgent Russia...
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Post by fumobici on Mar 5, 2014 3:46:21 GMT
Just remember I didn't start this Obama and the party he leads' unprincipled "pragmatism" whereby they not only failed to hold those who flagrantly illegally invaded Iraq accountable, but by in one of their first actions as executives preemptively and explicitly taking any accountability off the table for that criminality, aside from becoming complicit themselves by shielding the perps from the law, also undermined their and the US' standing to make any legitimate complaints regarding other nations doing similar actions. Because of the Obama administration's cowardice and evident lack of any principles if those principles might be politically inconvenient, they have unilaterally surrendered the right to lead the rest of the world in opposition to other countries when they violate international laws respecting national sovereignty. This loss of moral standing in turn makes diplomacy and consensus building far more difficult than it should be in response to incidents such as this and in turn increases the risk of the situation becoming very hot and very bloody. Why should anyone listen to the US on the subject of Russia militarily violating the territorial sovereignty of the Ukraine from an administration that protects and harbors criminals who have committed far worse military violations of national sovereignty? The moment screams for a US with clean hands and clear moral standing to lead the world in peacefully opposing Russian adventurism in Ukraine, yet Obama by his own actions crippled any such opportunity. The acts of moral cowardice in fact run so deep in this administration that it not only cannot oppose invasion with real moral authority, if the Russians were to flagrantly commit war crimes, hold prisoners indefinitely without charge, even torture those prisoners, it would be widely--and rightly--seen as hypocrisy for the US to make high minded denunciations of those crimes. Tolerance of immorality and criminality at the head of state level and the ensuing reputational damage from that undercut and cripple America's ability to project non-military power and peacefully influence international events. Soft power is real power, in many ways far more useful and effective than brute force, and we--the US--have undercut our own in ways that are impossible to quantify or calculate. The cynical decision to protect and harbor war criminals taken in the first days of the Obama administration will come back to haunt and weaken the US for a very, very long time to come. </rant> Anyway. Enough about us/US. Going out to the mailbox this afternoon I found my new New York Review of Books which contained an interesting and moving short piece on the situation in Ukraine by Yale history prof Timothy Snyder. Looking at the NYRB website I was pleased to see they had published the same piece to their website here: www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/Yes, Russia is up to no good in Ukraine. Yes, the protests were largely driven by groups honestly invested in building a Ukraine free of the authoritarian, corrupt and increasingly lawless status quo under Yanukovych. One cannot help but worry about how this organic upheaval against injustice might be co-opted and repurposed by people who do not share its liberal purposes or those who cynically view Ukraine as nothing more than a puzzle piece in the 21st version of a profoundly inhumane imperialist "great game" geopolitical calculation, but we should at the same time make due note of the courage and adherence to principle of the vast majority of those who came to protest, some of whom paid the ultimate price for so doing. Like so many other spontaneous uprisings we've seen recently, it isn't the powerful and the influential or those accorded a voice in our heavily curated media space who hold the flame of freedom but the ordinary men and women who put their bodies on the line to face down grave injustice. People who frankly hardly matter to the powerful forces who seek to exploit the chaos or to reignite the cold war for their own sociopathic purposes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 6:49:37 GMT
Down here at ground level, many of us are always tempted to brand what governments do not say or do as cowardice, but I think it is a bit more complicated than that.
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Post by bjd on Mar 5, 2014 8:16:30 GMT
Good input from both WaterhazardJack and Fumobici (although I disagree that it's only Obama and his administration that have been hypocritical -- that goes back a long way in US poitics). Anyway, I have been watching all this with great interest, although I'm finding the coverage by the BBC and others on their websites rather useless. How can any of this be covered by a 37-second video or a headline on their webpage. (I'm not at home to read the paper or the NYRB). I think all the former politicians like Tymoshenko should not be allowed back into power. More self-interest and corruption. I saw an interesting debate on France24 the other evening -- one participant said that Ukraine would be a very unwelcome gift for the EU. They have nothing to offer and can't afford to bail it out. There never was a question of future membership, only some trade agreements. This morning on the radio news I heard that an agreement should be made between Russia and the EU to help Ukraine! More money into the pockets of the oligarchs -- who are not going to disappear, of course. And nothing for those who were out on the streets demonstrating and being shot. And in the long run, the EU+US are no match for Putin, who plays hardball. Putin may be reacting the way he does because he doesn't want any democratic contagion to spread to Russia, but he is one tough guy (just look at all those bare-chested pictures ), but he doesn't have to worry about public support or criticism.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 22:34:34 GMT
'Tough' Ukraine talks to continue after Paris summitFrankly, even though I am much more worried about Ukraine, I am a bit dismayed that this meeting which was supposed to be about Lebanon apparently did not actually mention Lebanon at all in the end. I don't even know what they were supposed to settle about Lebanon, but I presume that it had something to do with Syrian refugees.
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Post by waterhazardjack on Mar 8, 2014 1:19:17 GMT
Good input from both WaterhazardJack and Fumobici (although I disagree that it's only Obama and his administration that have been hypocritical -- that goes back a long way in US poitics). Anyway, I have been watching all this with great interest, although I'm finding the coverage by the BBC and others on their websites rather useless. How can any of this be covered by a 37-second video or a headline on their webpage. (I'm not at home to read the paper or the NYRB). I think all the former politicians like Tymoshenko should not be allowed back into power. More self-interest and corruption. I saw an interesting debate on France24 the other evening -- one participant said that Ukraine would be a very unwelcome gift for the EU. They have nothing to offer and can't afford to bail it out. There never was a question of future membership, only some trade agreements. This morning on the radio news I heard that an agreement should be made between Russia and the EU to help Ukraine! More money into the pockets of the oligarchs -- who are not going to disappear, of course. And nothing for those who were out on the streets demonstrating and being shot. And in the long run, the EU+US are no match for Putin, who plays hardball. Putin may be reacting the way he does because he doesn't want any democratic contagion to spread to Russia, but he is one tough guy (just look at all those bare-chested pictures ), but he doesn't have to worry about public support or criticism. Thanks, Bjd and Fumobici. Like Bjd, I'm not sure I'd be too hard on Obama right now. There probably isn't any reason that he should be providing any kind of leadership on this one in the same way that Russia really shouldn't have any role in what happens in South or Central America. When it comes down to it, all the 'great powers' are hypocritical, anyway. They pursue policies dependent on their own 'vital interests' and then try and impose a 'moral Weltanschauung' on everyone else. So you end up with Britain who have a not dissimilar set-up to Crimea in Northern Ireland and who fought a war in the Falklands based upon the 'majority' view, and the US that is still retaining Guantanamo and blockading Cuba, scolding Russia for trying a similar 'stroke' in Crimea. Which is one of the things that Putin finds it hard to get his head around. Of course, when he was slaughtering Chechnyans in their tens of thousands, there was relatively little or no notice taken because he was seen to be on the 'right side of history' then. That is, fighting so-called 'terrorists' in the moronic 'War on Terror'...or War in Error, if you like... Getting back to Ukraine and listening to Yulia Tymoshenko in Dublin today, I would venture to say she isn't quite ready to resile from her 'woman of destiny' role, just yet. She was particularly defiant when pointing out that the only Russian killed so far was at Maidan. But since I last wrote, acting president Turchnyov has at least had the good sense to veto the application of the new language law that is so repugnant to other ethnicities in Ukraine. It's hard to argue with that France24 assessment. Ultimately, the EU has nothing to offer Ukraine but some bail-out cash, washed down with lots of 'Chay and Sympathisch'. The tragedy for those people down in Maidan that Fumobici references is that while they may aspire to EU membership and Western standards of living and freedom, all that will really be on offer for them will be some kind of associate membership that opens up a market of 46 million people to EU business interests and cash transfers that may or may not 'trickle down' to the average citizen. This will also be freighted with overtures to join NATO's Partnership for Peace programme that will cause further Russian resentment and possible retaliation... I stand by my analysis that Ukraine's position in the world is as a non-aligned, constitutionally neutral 'buffer' state between Europe and Eurasia, co-operating with both to their own advantage. Or as the old Russian/Ukrainian proverb puts it - "the clever calf sucks on the udders of 2 cows"...
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Post by bjd on Mar 8, 2014 8:22:12 GMT
My Canadian-Ukrainian friend has been sending links to interesting articles. One from The Daily Beast about why Cameron is dragging his feet and preaching moderation. Guess what? The huge amount of Russian money in Britain, particularly in London real estate, the number of Russian money cases being dealt with in London's commercial court, trade, etc. As usual, money not only talks, it yells loudly.
Another link today was to an article by Timothy Snyder (an American historian specializing in Russia and eastern/central Europe) in the NYRB about Putin's view of the world and propaganda fitting in with the old Soviet model. In other words, not offering an alternative view of reality, but offering a wished-for view, which is what the USSR did for years. He says that Merkel, who grew up in East Germany and speaks Russian, claims that Putin is "living in another world". Snyder also demolishes Putin's arguments for Russian intervention in Ukraine one after the another.
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Post by waterhazardjack on Mar 8, 2014 23:06:26 GMT
My Canadian-Ukrainian friend has been sending links to interesting articles. One from The Daily Beast about why Cameron is dragging his feet and preaching moderation. Guess what? The huge amount of Russian money in Britain, particularly in London real estate, the number of Russian money cases being dealt with in London's commercial court, trade, etc. As usual, money not only talks, it yells loudly. Too right, Bjd. One could be forgiven for imagining, for example, that Chelsea's (football club owned by Putin associate Roman Abramovich) stadium would be empty or poorly attended for today's match against Tottenham, or that some players might boycott it or wear an armband or make some gesture, but not a word of it, of course. Basically, all of the EU countries are essentially the same. They are against the Russian intervention right up to the point where it makes any impact in their pockets and then the dead hand of self-interest and lethargy dictates that nothing but grand platitudes will do. And, of course, the Russians understand this perfectly... Another link today was to an article by Timothy Snyder (an American historian specializing in Russia and eastern/central Europe) in the NYRB about Putin's view of the world and propaganda fitting in with the old Soviet model. In other words, not offering an alternative view of reality, but offering a wished-for view, which is what the USSR did for years. He says that Merkel, who grew up in East Germany and speaks Russian, claims that Putin is "living in another world". Snyder also demolishes Putin's arguments for Russian intervention in Ukraine one after the another. Not sure I'd go along with that analysis. I understand that Merkel and Putin have probably a better dialogue and insight into each other's personalities (Putin also speaks fluent German and was stationed in East Germany for many years) but it might be more appropriate to acknowledge that Putin lives in his own world and not 'another world' or indeed 'our world'. By that I mean that if you look at an atlas or map and see the countries that Russia is surrounded by or contiguous with, then their circumstances are very different from our cosy and relatively secure neighbourhoods. Being abutted by the likes of North Korea, China, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iraq, various Islamist central Asian states and Turkey doesn't exactly contribute to a 'feelgood factor' and exacerbates the Russian inclination to a 'securocratic' form of government. Then add in an encroaching European Union whose states are either all full members of Nato or it's PfP programme, and you have the makings of a stand-off which as come to pass in Ukraine. But clumsy European manoeuvring has been a major contributor to the situation reaching this point, I would contend...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 6:45:13 GMT
But clumsy European manoeuvring has been a major contributor to the situation reaching this point, I would contend... It's easy to say that, but what, pray tell, do you think 'Europe' should have done instead?
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