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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 17, 2015 20:26:47 GMT
I really don't remember ever seeing it before Princess Diana's death* either.
In fairness, the collective shock and sadness perhaps makes people feel as though they "have to do something", which I suppose is an expression of their feeling of helplessness in the face of tragedy. Perhaps the outpouring of tribute is consoling to the families and friends of the deceased. But yeah, I can't suppress a twinge of bafflement over it.
*What I do remember seeing, to my everlasting amusement, was a picture of Diana and Mother Teresa entering heaven together. I guess Mother Teresa forgave Diana for eclipsing her death.
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Post by mossie on Nov 17, 2015 20:34:42 GMT
For some reason it seemed to start with Diana, although odd flowers would often be left at the site of crashes where deaths had occurred, but never in such volume.
If one has no connection with the victim, I consider it mawkish sentimentality. It is a sign of how soft people have become, even Britons have lost that 'stiff upper lip'.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 20:51:39 GMT
While I wholeheartedly agree with you Lizzy, not everyone shares the same sensibility, and, simply feel the need to express something,if anything, to try and loan some type of sentiment, support, the best way they know how,as banal as it may seem to some of us. It does represent a show of solidarity regardless. It does not smack of a paltry sentiment regardless of what you and I would do.
What it does symbolize is all that the people are trying to express in a time of feeling powerless and yet,solidarity and empathy.
Who are we to judge?
We all have our own expressions of mourning,grief,sorrow,outrage and whatever else all these people are feeling. Otherwise,they would not have come out.
I do not think there is a pat response to this outrage that comes close to Princess Diana,although, I do see where you are coming from,so as to not take this as a criticism please.
The whole leaving of flowers, candles etc. to me is relatively new aside from some roadside memorials when someone died in a car crash.
I'm thinking back and trying to trace when it first became real prominent. I strongly suspect it was in NYC back in the 1980's but,would have to research it more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 20:56:04 GMT
I really don't remember ever seeing it before Princess Diana's death* either. In fairness, the collective shock and sadness perhaps makes people feel as though they "have to do something", which I suppose is an expression of their feeling of helplessness in the face of tragedy. Perhaps the outpouring of tribute is consoling to the families and friends of the deceased. But yeah, I can't suppress a twinge of bafflement over it. * What I do remember seeing, to my everlasting amusement, was a picture of Diana and Mother Teresa entering heaven together. I guess Mother Teresa forgave Diana for eclipsing her death.The suggestion to give blood or donate money to a cause seems to me like a far better tribute. How many thousands and thousands of euros have been spent on flowers? Good for the florists, I suppose. Edit: No offence taken at all, casi. I'm just a little baffled and know that it wouldn't make me feel any better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 21:06:40 GMT
I completely missed the post about donating blood, I'm sorry, and could only agree with you wholeheartedly regarding this. Merci.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 21:10:45 GMT
Oh, there was no post her about donating blood, casi, I just had read about it elsewhere and thought it was a constructive suggestion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 21:21:23 GMT
The very first day, they actually said that there were too many people trying to donate blood (since hemoglobin has a limited 'shelf life') and it was requested that they remember to donate in the coming months when it would be useful again. However, I think on the third day, they were asking for people with type O negative blood to donate if possible.
As for the flowers and candles, I have never found any impulse to leave them at such a place. However, they are a very common symbol in Christianity and are often used in churches and cemeteries. I will even confess to lighting a candle in the cathedral of Lille on Saturday morning. I do not really want to criticise anybody's feelings about such matters, but what I really find personally ridiculous is when children are involved and dozens (or more) stuffed animals are added to the pile. They look horrible after the first rainfall (often just two or three days later) and would really have been so much more appropriate being cuddled by living children rather than being abandoned on the street.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 21:32:10 GMT
I'm a big candle-lighter in cathedrals, in memory of all my various departed Catholic relatives.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 21:49:48 GMT
I felt that I had seen more than enough crime scenes and did not intend to go to see the last one on rue de Charonne. But then last night on television, there was a programme with the owner of the café La Belle Equipe, where 18 people were killed. Grégory Reibenberg was incredibly calm when interviewed, even though he was accompanied by a psychologist who has not left his side since Friday. He is the owner of La Belle Equipe and his wife Djamila was killed, as well as 8 of his employees. He is Jewish and his wife was Muslim, so I am inclined to wonder if that was not an element in the choice of the target. He was already well known in the café circles of the 11th arrondissement, because he ran another café not too far away. On television he said that, yes, he will reopen the café whenever it is possible to do so, that life goes on and that one must not give in to the terrorists. But he also looked like he was still in a state of profound shock (hard to believe that he could avoid it) even though he spoke normally. I think it is likely that he was heavily medicated and he struck me as the sort of person who will act normal with all of his friends and acquaintances, go out with them for good meals and drinks during which all sorts of memories will be shared of good times in the past. And then one unexpected evening, he might go home and blow his brains out. So I had to go and see La Belle Equipe this morning to close the chapter. An Arab reporter was broadcasting from the scene. Cédric will be an eternal love. Véronique had a beautiful soul. Ludovic and Yacinthe will be remembered as well. Ludo was born in the Congo and grew up in Lille. Yacinthe was from Burkina Faso but attended the prestigious Lycée Montaigne. I slowly backed away from the scene. But all the way down the street to the metro, all of the sills bore traces of the event. I don't regret visiting these places but I will not return in the foreseeable future, except to Place de la République which is a transit zone that I could not really avoid even if I wanted to. As the months went by after the Charlie Hebdo killings, I kept hoping that the statue would finally return to its serene and unencumbered state, and it looked like that time was not too far off. Now I know that it will not happen for years, if ever.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2015 22:09:47 GMT
Thank you for your reportage, K.
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Post by questa on Nov 17, 2015 22:45:51 GMT
A thoughtful and loving collection of pictures. Thank you Kerouac2
At the time of Diana's death various psychologists said that many people who had not been able to grieve a personal death now were caught in the communal grief and were able to mourn their own loss, as well as the much-loved Princess's. Some people had carried the 'stiff upper lip' since wartime and now found the high emotions and displaying of them publicly by masses of flowers, candles and poetry released in them the permission to start the grieving process.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 17, 2015 22:47:50 GMT
Yes, thank you -- very moving, balanced report.
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Post by fumobici on Nov 18, 2015 4:16:13 GMT
Thank you K for being brave and sharing these moving scenes with us. The little neighborhood centered around the Rue de Charonne and Rue Faidherbe corner became very dear to me in the short weeks I spent there last year, I wonder how it will feel to me if I return there any time soon. The workers who have to clean up and make normal looking the aftermath of this insanity have my admiration and my concern for their well being as well. I hope they have their own people they can talk to about what they've had to deal with. They probably aren't paid nearly enough either, anyone who works for the City of Paris should be able to live in that city in a dignified manner.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2015 5:25:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 5:43:48 GMT
Yes, a convoy of about 20 police vans with sirens blaring dashed up my street about an hour ago. The shooting has stopped for the moment, but nobody is saying whether the situation is finished.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 6:24:32 GMT
Here is a video of the ambience of the 11th arrondissement.
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Post by bjd on Nov 18, 2015 6:29:22 GMT
I saw that same interview with the Belle Equipe café owner. The man did indeed look as though he was in shock and he and the psychologist were taking part in group counselling for others affected by the killing there, including a young man who had preferred to stay home and try his new video game instead of going to the café with his wife, who was killed.
Fumobici, I think if you return to rue de Charonne/Faidherbe anytime a few months from now, you will not see any difference with what you saw last year. Once the flowers and candles are cleaned up, the bullet-shattered windows replaced, people will try to live as though everything is normal because it's impossible to continue otherwise.
I was in Israel in 1997 and in Tel-Aviv there was a bomb attack in a café, killing several people. The next day everything had been cleaned up (no flowers and candles) and the friends I was staying with told me that Israeli policy was to clean everything as quickly as possible so that people wouldn't dwell on what happened but for life to carry on normally.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 6:47:16 GMT
This is probably incorrect, as all of the early information was a few days ago, but one of the principal radio stations is saying: 3 dead, 3 arrests.
There is also mention of a woman wearing a suicide belt.
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Post by bjd on Nov 18, 2015 7:29:50 GMT
Same info on the BBC website about the raid in Saint Denis.
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Post by deyana on Nov 18, 2015 14:29:52 GMT
I believe as of now it's two dead and seven arrested. And it's still ongoing...
And a female suicide bomber blew herself up when apartments in St Denis were raided by police early this morning.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 14:53:41 GMT
"It is very important to bring flowers to our dead. It is very important to reread Hemingway's A Moveable Feast (French title: Paris est une fête) several times because we are an old civilisation and will hold our values high and we will fraternise with five million Muslims who practice their religion in a free and friendly manner and we will fight against the ten thousand barbarians who kill and say it is in Allah's name."
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Post by lagatta on Nov 18, 2015 15:05:18 GMT
The femaile kamikaze also killed the police dog Diesel in the process.
This is right in the centre of the town of St-Denis, near the Basilica and the town hall. You'll see streets similar to those of northeastern Paris. There is a major university in St-Denis. I'm sure there are still grubby parts and rundown housing estates, but when I stayed in St-Denis some years ago, it was fine.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 15:33:58 GMT
They did mention that this particular building, even though it was on the main pedestrian street, was mostly a decrepit squat.
The police will be releasing more details at 19:00 Paris time.
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Post by chexbres on Nov 18, 2015 16:38:09 GMT
Until that time, CNN is drooling over the repeated phrase "authorities will soon identify fragments of body parts to make sure that the mastermind was killed in the attack". Journalism at its best...
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Post by htmb on Nov 18, 2015 16:46:06 GMT
Though laying flowers at a site is not something I'd do, I like the spirit and the words of the woman in the video (post 442).
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2015 16:51:04 GMT
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Nov 18, 2015 17:13:11 GMT
This morning the news was full of todays raid. Nobody really knows what really happened and who was killed or captured. Must have been scary for the locals hearing the explosions and gunshots.
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Post by nycgirl on Nov 18, 2015 18:46:11 GMT
Kerouac, thank you for this very moving report.
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Post by lagatta on Nov 18, 2015 18:53:39 GMT
Yes. Fortunately I never watch CNN. Imagining harassing a man who is getting enough dirty looks just for his facial features and hat? In Toronto a woman wearing a hijab who was picking up her kids at a school was beaten and robbed by two ijuts. Real ijuts - one stole her phone. I'm sure that can be traced somehow...
We didn't get the "decrepit squat" bit here. I've walked along that pedestrian street and it was fun just seeing ordinary people out shopping or having a coffee. But I guess there are such places remaining, despite gentrification of suburbs that close to Paris (with a university, to boot).
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 19, 2015 1:01:31 GMT
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