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Post by tod2 on Feb 20, 2015 12:48:37 GMT
Htmb - Maybe you are the best person, besides our dear Kerouac, who may be able to shed light on what I term Cajun Country in the USA. I compare the Cajun music to the South African "sakkie sakkie" music which is played by 4 people on various instruments - a piano accordion, a squash-box accordion, maybe some drums and a guitar. I am wondering if this music style came from French Huguenots that landed here...
I know the Cajuns are French but from what part of France and where does their special musical sound come from?
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Post by htmb on Feb 20, 2015 13:21:08 GMT
Tod, I will defer to Bixa or Casimira to answer this question.
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Post by htmb on Feb 20, 2015 13:23:43 GMT
I'm sure Kerouac has more first hand experience, as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 15:14:13 GMT
Although my childhood was semi-immersed in the Mississippi fringe of Cajun country, apart from the food and the Mardi Gras celebrations, there was very little Cajun culture visible where I lived. Even though perhaps 20% of my schoolmates had "French" names (Broussard, Hébert, Bergeron, Michel, Landry come to mind...), the culture of the generation in school had already been completely diluted by the surrounding "southernness." Even the rampant Catholicism of the area (in a state with very few Catholics away from the coastal area) was more influenced by the large number of Italian farming families that had settled there, so the Italians ran the show.
I think that southern Louisiana is another matter entirely.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 20, 2015 17:15:50 GMT
Thanks for that information Kerouac.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 17:32:38 GMT
Well, of course, Cajun is a corruption of Acadian, from the original French settlers of Acadia, (the Maritimes of Canada and some of Northeast US). They were expelled by the British from their adopted homeland after the Treaty of Paris in 1763 and many headed south to Louisiana (the ones I'm descended from simply moved to Québec). That's very simplistic of course, because the diaspora included Métis, native North Americans, and lots of other different ethnic groups. The French came from all over France, with a large contingent from the Northwest of France, Normandy and Brittany. Hugenots from the West Coast, certainly, but many were Catholics driven by poverty, disease, and the promise of land and riches for people who were willing to work hard, men and women. The Land of Opportunity.
As far as the music goes, I don't know too much, but there seems to be a strong connection between zydeco and the Celtic music of the Maritimes and the coast of France. And of course, fiddles are big as well. Don't forget the fiddles.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 21, 2015 6:23:46 GMT
Lizzy! That was very good information in a nutshell! And yes, I forgot the fiddle/violin part of the band music! Just watching your video reminded me another difference between the Cajun music and our Boere Orkes music......Cajun is lively and jolly but ours is sedate and un-moving. The tunes have a similar rhythm though. Listening to one Cajun tune after another one can almost think it's the same tune just repeated in a slightly different way, but I'm sure to the Cajun country folk there is a vast difference.
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Post by fumobici on Feb 22, 2015 0:59:21 GMT
Good Doug Kershaw performance there. I saw him perform live back in the prehistoric era and it was a good time. The cajun Jimi Hendrix.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 22, 2015 3:43:14 GMT
Just some rough & ready information here ~ This is an excellent brief history of the Acadians/Cajuns in Louisiana. Very broadly, & hardly a rule, "Cajun music" is performed by white people and zydeco by black people. Here is a well-known standard performed by some of the grand masters in Cajun and zyedeco music, respectively: Pretty good explanation hereEnjoyable & informative:
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Post by tod2 on Feb 22, 2015 8:20:32 GMT
Bixa - thanks so much for those links because now I can 'link' you back to some Boeremusiek which should show you the differences and similarities! One thing that stuck out a mile is that in Cajun and Zyedeco music is that you don't have to have a singing voice. The more out of tune and gravel-like it comes out, the more it seems to fit in with the music played. One instrument I notice is the 'washboard' used in zyedec & Cajun but not in Boeremusiek.
In Boeremusiek it is mainly orchestral with very little singing.
This link is about how 'upbeat it gets' - I never knew young students of this day and age could play like that or even be interested in this kind of music!
Then found this!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 15:34:38 GMT
Good information, ladies!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 19:39:34 GMT
I have to admit that I have absolutely zero attraction to just about all of that music, whether Cajun, zydeco, Dixieland or country. I may have been influenced by my mother's culture when I was growing up, since songs by Aznavour or Piaf are at a totally different end of the spectrum. The only southern music that I ever learned to appreciate were in the category of 'blues' -- such as by Billie Holliday or Albert King.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 20:03:40 GMT
I am not a great fan of Cajun music as I find it so repetisious. There are some traditional Cajun bands that I can enjoy on occasion. The main allure has more to do with the synergy,coupled with the culture that makes it so special. You would never find a Cajun or Zydeco audience sitting idly by the sidelines. It commands a certain energy that brings people to their feet and want to dance and that's a whole other topic, as there are some incredible dancers well known for their twirling and almost whirling dervish like fervor. It's all part of the whole celebration of the culture that has gone on for generations.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 20:16:40 GMT
That is very true, casimira. Since I am a motionless listener 98% of the time, that would be an additional explanation for my reaction. That is not to say that I don't enjoy watching it, in moderation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 23:45:22 GMT
Years ago I was visiitng some friends in NYC. I want to say circa 1980. The couple I was staying with had become totally enamored about all things New Orleans. So, during my visit they had scheduled all kinds of events that were associated with New Orleans. A restaurant that "specialized" in Cajun food, appalling...reds beans and rice, jambalaya etc. I know they meant well. Then, to top it off was tickets to The Savoy where a very prominent New Orleans band was appearing. We were seated at white table cloth clad tables and everyone was on their best behavior, politely sipping their white wine.
I knew this band well, although not a rabid fan, felt so stifled by the venue they were having to perform. At one point I couldn't take it anymore and took my white cloth napkin and stood on my chair waving it New Orleans style. Within minutes, the whole house joined in, and everyone in the theatre cut loose. The next day the NY Times, had a story, The Neville Brothers bring down the house at the Savoy. Weeks later, I ran into one of the musicians and he told me "I have been looking for you! Had it not been for you we would have tanked on that tour". I told him that it was my pleasure and despite my guests initial shock at getting up on the chair waving a napkin, even NYer's could cut loose given the right impetus.
Such is the overall general approach to New Orleans music. It is so engrained into the culture.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 23, 2015 8:06:05 GMT
Like Cajun music etc., Boeremusiek is found in areas where the population is Afrikaans speaking and the community get together for a shindig in their particular culture, which is something we onlookers can only tolerate for a short time. As toe-tapping as it might be, the repetitious nature of the music sends me heading for the hills. I'm trying to picture Casimira waving that napkin New Orleans style....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 17:26:13 GMT
Were you there Tod I would have gotten you right on up there with me!!!
For many years the music club in our neighborhood had the same Cajun band play every Thursday night. My smart ass husband who really couldn't deal with the repetition came up with a song line that he and his buddies latched onto. A song would just begin and he would say, "listen up, this is my favorite, "MY alligator caught the crabs last night, she came home a itchin'and a scratchin'." Then the whole lot of them would sing it to with great hilarity over and over again, the same line until the song was over.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 23, 2015 17:29:30 GMT
I'm damn sure I would have been stomping and waving and shakin' my ...... for all it's worth!! Then after 10 minutes collapsed in a heap gulping for air
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 23, 2015 21:43:31 GMT
Like Cajun music etc., Boeremusiek is found in areas where the population is Afrikaans speaking and the community get together for a shindig in their particular culture ... Tod, my guess would be that the Boeremusiek grew out of whatever was the folk music in Holland back in the 17th century in the region(s) of those original settlers in South Africa, with influences from other cultures & centuries creeping in over time. Same thing with Cajun music -- As Barry Ancelet explains in his monograph Cajun Music: Its Origins and Development, the Acadians who came to Louisiana beginning in 1764 after their expulsion from Acadie (Nova Scotia ) in 1755 brought with them music that had its origins in France but that had already been changed by experiences in the New World through encounters with British settlers and Native Americans. Taking stories with European origins and changing them to refer to life in Louisiana or inventing their own tales, early balladeers would sing without accompaniment at family gathering or special occasions. The fiddle supplied music for dances, although Ancelet also describes a cappela dance tunes that relied on clapping and stomping to provide the rhythm.
The music of the Acadians in Louisiana in the 19th century was transformed by new influences: African rhythms, blues, and improvisational singing techniques as well as by other rhythms and singing styles from Native Americans. Some fiddle tunes and a few ballads came from Anglo-American sources. The Spanish even contributed a few melodies, including, according to Ancelet, the melody for "J’ai passé devant ta porte," which comes from a concerto for classical guitar. sourceI don't know if this is true or not, but I once read that the concertina crept into Cajun music because it was cheaper & more available than a fiddle & its sound could mimic some fiddle sounds. I guess the accordion was a later introduction. As for the washboard you mentioned earlier, Tod, that seems like a later, American innovation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 22:04:18 GMT
There is no official designation of "Cajun Country" but there are plenty of proposals to show where it is, so I went looking for them. I find this map rather unsatisfactory, because it is a sort of "all-or-nothing" designation, as though Greater New Orleans does not count as Cajun country -- or my diluted Mississippi childhood either, even though there were plenty of Cajuns. imageshack.com/a/img538/6782/ZpfBVv.jpgThis creole/cajun map probably tries to rectify the situation a bit, but it is still not satisfactory. imageshack.com/a/img661/231/uX4oLo.pngThen I had to give up, because I was unable to find any map going beyond the Louisiana border, in spite of the Cajun population where I grew up. All of my Google attempts just produced lists of Cajun restaurants in the area, which is a bit of a consolation except when it is the Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., of which there is an establishment in Biloxi.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 23:26:35 GMT
I don't think I've ever heard of Greater New Orleans being designated or referred to as Cajun Country. I think that first map is pretty spot on. I will have to get my husband to look at it and get his opinion.
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Post by bixaorellana on Feb 24, 2015 3:50:51 GMT
Although my childhood was semi-immersed in the Mississippi fringe of Cajun country, apart from the food and the Mardi Gras celebrations, there was very little Cajun culture visible where I lived. Even though perhaps 20% of my schoolmates had "French" names (Broussard, Hébert, Bergeron, Michel, Landry come to mind...), the culture of the generation in school had already been completely diluted by the surrounding "southernness." Even the rampant Catholicism of the area (in a state with very few Catholics away from the coastal area) was more influenced by the large number of Italian farming families that had settled there, so the Italians ran the show. I think that southern Louisiana is another matter entirely. You pretty much nailed it, Kerouac, as pertains to that part of the world. Also, everyone in La. & Miss. with a French name is not necessarily Cajun. A friend's elderly mother, surname LeBlanc, once told me that their family was " real French, not Cajun", not a nice way to put it, but historically correct. That first map you found seems the product of some PR firm, but the second one is pretty accurate. All my life, it was the southwestern part of Louisiana that was known as Cajun country, or sometimes as "southwestern Louisiana". That's where I went to college, in the late 60s. You could hear lots of French -- for instance, in the many mom & pop stores in Lafayette at that time, although they'd revert to English as soon as a college kid customer came in. Some of my classmates -- those from further "down the bayou" -- could speak French, but mostly it was the parents of my generation from that area that could, not the children. My godmother and my grandmother were both from the French side of the Mississippi north of Baton Rouge, so not Cajun country. My godmother was from a French-American family & could read French, although I never heard her speak it. My grandmother's family was Sicilian, so not French speakers. Still, my grandmother retained certain "French" things from growing up such as the way she pronounced my mother's name (Marie Ann) and the word "soignée", which she reserved for only those things that really deserved it. Even though Cajun French often sports an American accent, Cajuns often have a pronounced accent of their own unlike anything else in the US.
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Post by bjd on Feb 24, 2015 7:02:37 GMT
I just listened to the Mme Guidry interview. There is a definite resemblance to Quebec accents, and also the use of the occasional English word. She was much more understandable than I had thought she would be.
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Post by tod2 on Feb 24, 2015 7:12:57 GMT
Thanks you for all that very interesting information Bixa! I took note of something I have only ever come across in my own country. It is this: In the first clip the old lady speaks in French but every now and again reverts to English words. This way of talking has become more and more prevalent in our Bantu languages and even people being interviewed on TV revert to this 'bastardization' of their own language by mixing it up with English. I really hate this and would rather not understand a word than catch a few phrases. In the beginning I think it was a way of showing off their knowledge of English but has now become a language style of its own.
Naturally I caught the gist of his jokes but did understand the word Fooyong. Cajun Chinese omelet??
Last question - Is their any connection between Cajuns and Hill Billies?
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Post by bjd on Feb 24, 2015 8:33:16 GMT
Tod, the mixing in of English words with another language happens in many places where English is the dominant surrounding language.
When we first went to Canada, my parents were surprised at the way some Poles who had been in Canada for years included English words when they spoke Polish, often putting Polish endings or grammatical structures onto English words. The extent to which they did so depending on several things -- educational/social level, contact with contemporary Polish speakers, etc.
I think too what you understand as Fooyung is couillon, the French word from testicles but used to mean an idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 9:42:40 GMT
In my immigrant neighbourhood, I hear plenty of the Africans, Maghrebis and Srilankans (as well as others) mix plenty of French when they are speaking their own language. Part of it is to cover concepts or terms which don't exist in their home country or with which they never came into contact: sécurité sociale, préfecture, contrôle technique... And some of it is just because certain common expressions have invaded their daily lives, no matter what language they are speaking: tu comprends (y'know?), j'en ai marre (I'm fed up), reviens ici (come back!)...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 14:37:08 GMT
With regard to the maps in reply #19, I shared them with my husband and he agrees that the Greater New Orleans area is not Cajun Country although many people automatically make that assumption. One of the most glaring examples of this erroneous assumption is displayed in the movie The Big Easy (one of the nicknames for New Orleans). The movie takes place in New Orleans and the main character played by Dennis Quaid sports what is supposed to be a Cajun accent as if everyone native to New Orleans speak like that. Not only is his accent laughable, it is in no way whatsoever how native New Orleanians speak. It was both laughable and embarrassing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 15:03:22 GMT
I have never considered New Orleans to be in Cajun country, but it nevertheless has a significant percentage of people of Cajun origin living there. So just like coastal Mississippi, I would tend to say that it is "Cajun influenced."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 15:20:06 GMT
I guess both my husband and I misinterpreted you when you posted "as though Greater New Orleans does not count as Cajun Country".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 15:37:35 GMT
Thanks you for all that very interesting information Bixa! I took note of something I have only ever come across in my own country. It is this: In the first clip the old lady speaks in French but every now and again reverts to English words. This way of talking has become more and more prevalent in our Bantu languages and even people being interviewed on TV revert to this 'bastardization' of their own language by mixing it up with English. I really hate this and would rather not understand a word than catch a few phrases. In the beginning I think it was a way of showing off their knowledge of English but has now become a language style of its own. Naturally I caught the gist of his jokes but did understand the word Fooyong. Cajun Chinese omelet?? Last question - Is their any connection between Cajuns and Hill Billies? This is really prevalent in India as well, where English has invaded a lot of all of the languages. It happens in Quebec. It's been going on for centuries all over the world.
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