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Post by htmb on Dec 12, 2015 12:21:54 GMT
I was surprised to see people doing these things. Rappelling off the Arc de Triomphe! Is that common?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 13:21:14 GMT
Yes, by protestors of every imaginable bent.
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Post by bjd on Dec 12, 2015 19:17:28 GMT
I just saw on the news that there has been a unanimous decision made at the COP21 conference -- they are all going to work to keep temperature rise to 1.5°C. All 196 delegates applauding themselves. Meanwhile, there were protestors outside in Paris saying it wasn't enough.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 12, 2015 21:04:57 GMT
Yes, I read a little while ago that the cap was 2° at the last (?) conference in Denmark.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 22:02:15 GMT
I just saw on the news that there has been a unanimous decision made at the COP21 conference -- they are all going to work to keep temperature rise to 1.5°C. All 196 delegates applauding themselves. Meanwhile, there were protestors outside in Paris saying it wasn't enough. They weren't saying it wasn't enough. They were saying they don't believe a piece of paper. This is typical of a lot of dour personalities who prefer to believe that nothing will work and don't want to give anything a chance.
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Post by rikita on Dec 12, 2015 23:07:05 GMT
um ... can't say i know about these specific protesters or this specific case, as currently i am not able to follow the topic much. but i am not sure i agree with the interpretation that protest against a piece of paper is necessarily "typical of a lot of dour personalities who prefer to believe that nothing will work and don't want to give anything a chance". i think you could also see it more as saying "we don't believe a piece of paper, so we are keeping our eyes on you". i think demonstrating not only has to do with protest, but also with showing presence. like showing that a topic matters to people, and that they won't just take promises for granted and trust it will all go its way. and not believing this type of agreement or seeing it as not enough doesn't mean that you believe that nothing will work. if you thought nothing would work you'd have no reason to protest anymore, i'd suppose ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 3:10:01 GMT
Everybody knows that. The NGOs are everywhere as watchdogs. We know they will be vigilant. I just personally find it inappropriate to imply that it was all a waste of time.
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Post by rikita on Dec 13, 2015 9:03:51 GMT
i don't think it is. not saying i personally think it was a waste of time, but i think different opinions, showing them, and showing a certain skepticism is part of democracy. (and knowing the ngos will be vigilant is again trusting on someone else and thus different to people saying they, themselves, are watching).
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Post by bjd on Dec 13, 2015 9:17:56 GMT
I agree with Rikita. The fact that a lot of ministers, politicians and representatives of various organizations have signed a watered-down protocol doesn't mean that ordinary people shouldn't show that they are keeping their eyes open and following what is going on. Making a human chain in Paris and demonstrating on lots of other cities all over the world should remind those who signed the agreement that they are supposed to be working for everyone and not just while the pictures are being taken in Le Bourget.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 12:54:39 GMT
Just about everything that needs to be done urgently needs to be done in Africa and Asia right now. Prancing around with signs in Europe is not going to help.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 13, 2015 19:12:20 GMT
Kerouac, don't tell me you're turning into a "grumpy old man". "Prancing around with signs" is bloody insulting to those of us who have been involved in environmental activism (which involves a lot more committee, lobbying, research and behind-the-scenes work than street protests) for years or even decades. And you know full well that there are climate activists and important spokesmen and women in Asia, Africa and elsewhere in the Global South.
No, I don't trust any elected officials in the sense of passively granting them a blank cheque. I worked for the campaign of my MP in the last federal elections here (he was elected), and I would no doubt have voted for the PS at least on the second round if I were a French citizen, and I thought Paris COP21 was quite successful in the difficult context. But democracy doesn't involve just voting once in a while.
There is still a hell of a lot to do in terms of transition to a post-carbon (and otherwise more environmentally friendly) environment even in the "advanced-industrial" (or post-industrial) countries. It is still far too normal to fly rather than travel by rail within Europe - and Europe isn't as bad as North America in terms of carcentrism and sprawl because in most parts of Western Europe, there simply isn't the room for such crap.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 13, 2015 20:50:47 GMT
Hear, hear!
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Post by htmb on Dec 13, 2015 21:11:37 GMT
No matter what your thoughts, I do think being extremely ill and hospitalized for almost a week should be taken into account here. Could this conversation be delayed for a bit?
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Post by lagatta on Dec 13, 2015 21:15:01 GMT
Of course. And I'm not saying that to slag you. I do hope you are feeling well again very soon!
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 13, 2015 21:53:49 GMT
Oh, I think Kerouac has always enjoyed -- perhaps even provoked -- a bit of spirited yet civilized disagreement.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 4:02:23 GMT
I have demonstrated hundreds of times and will continue to do so. However, what has become unbearable to me over the years is how easily the most ignorant people mouth off about important technical subjects about which they know little or nothing.
I am particularly annoyed at the popular catch phrase "watered down agreement" which is being used by so many people. I wonder how many of them could explain exactly what would be a "100% pure agreement" and their brilliant plan for getting all of the countries of the world to agree to it.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 16, 2015 1:15:03 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 1, 2017 5:49:16 GMT
In the end only two countries in the world did not sign the agreement: Nicaragua and Syria.
And today we will know if there is a country that has rescinded its signature.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 1, 2017 10:17:43 GMT
The third country was also wracked by a bloody civil war, but rather longer ago than the first two.
Actually good scientific "vulgarisation" is available now; the Smithsonian is among the good sites. A friend who is a medical doctor and very involved in the environmental movement in Germany - and who is now living in the Global South - likes the scientific and environmental reporting at Der Spiegel (many articles also in English) as good explanations for the layperson. We can certainly suggest other good sources.
I think protests at such events are very important indeed. Of course I mean peaceful protest, not the silly Black Bloc. The latter strike me as the anarchist version of footie or hockey rioters, who just like to smash stuff.
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Post by bjd on Jun 1, 2017 10:30:09 GMT
Which third country do you mean, Lagatta? I think Kerouac is referring to the US.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 1, 2017 11:50:44 GMT
So was I
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 1, 2017 20:24:14 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 1, 2017 23:25:19 GMT
Thanks. I needed my blood pressure to shoot up out the top of my skull. GOD, I hate those fuckers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2017 4:13:02 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Jun 2, 2017 9:31:23 GMT
Trump talked about "Pittsburgh, not Paris", but he isn't from Pittsburgh, he's from NYC! And lives in the centre of Manhattan, on real estate as pricy as in central Paris, London or other great cities.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 2, 2017 9:43:58 GMT
Incisive speech by Macron and a harbinger of the inevitable brain drain from the US as the monkeys continue to run the zoo there.
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Post by whatagain on Jun 2, 2017 10:07:26 GMT
My anti Americanism has reached a peak. So. Trump blocks immigration and builds a wall Trump wants to rescind and renegotiate commercial agreements. Easier if EEC can be made to implode. Trump wants renegotiate cimmitmznts within NATO. It is true that now that he is mate wit Putin we don't need US troops in Europe anymore. Trumps withdraw from environmental agreements. Since USA are the biggest polluters it is fir the rest of the world to clean his garbage.
From now on it is America first.
We should all tell him from now on it is America alone.
And put a 20pc tariff barrier on any import from the US. To clean the planet.
I hate to become anti US.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2017 10:39:31 GMT
Probably better to be anti-Trump and Trump clique than to be anti US. They will shake this disease off sooner or later.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 2, 2017 10:46:03 GMT
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Post by patricklondon on Jun 2, 2017 10:47:56 GMT
It does all look rather like 1920 (refusing to ratify admission to the League of Nations, and the postwar security structure), only with potential for much more catastrophic consequences. My blog | My photos | My video clips"too literate to be spam"
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