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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 16, 2020 21:10:11 GMT
I've never thought Biden was senile and frankly, it really irritates me when people are so quick to ascribe any older person's shortcomings to dementia. No, my problem with Joe Biden is that he is just worthless and about as qualified to be president as my bedroom slipper. He inherited being a politician from his dad & seems to think that his lifelong coasting on the public dime entitles him to be president this time around before it's too late for him. I want to throw up when people think it's wonderful that he *campaign tactic* is going to condescend to have a little lady woman as his running mate. Hey Joe -- what about Anita Hill? Obviously, the way things are going it looks as though I'll have to hold my nose and vote for good ol' Joe because it's so imperative to get ugly dictator boy out of the White House, but hell's bells that hurts. Sorry, I realize this is a polite public forum, but -- fuck the America people for continuously being so "moderate", so damned namby-pamby ninny willing to lean over and grab their ankles.
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Post by kerouac2 on Mar 16, 2020 21:53:33 GMT
Actually, there are very few democratic countries where the voters are not "moderate." And the countries where the voters go wild (unmoderate) in their choices are not always my favourites (Russia, Iran, India...).
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Post by fumobici on Mar 17, 2020 14:42:02 GMT
I wasn’t singling anyone out, casi. But too many people these days are questioning Biden’s cognition. Yes, even in the age of Trump, we have people picking on far more capable people for far less obvious failings. Biden is not and never will be a silver-tongued orator like his old boss, Obama. Joe, on his worst days, seems to have been born with a silver foot in his mouth! I think he should just ‘fess up to this, and go on to say something like, “but I know things and how to DO things and more importantly I will put good knowledgeable (and moral) people in my cabinet and other appointed positions.” My primary problem with Biden isn't his cognition, but his policies. His opposition to universal healthcare as a citizen's right* by itself is enough to prevent me from ever voting for him. *"How you gonna pay for it?" isn't an acceptable response. We just dumped around 1.5 Trillion into "free markets" for a 20 minute market bump and nobody asked how we are going to pay for it. Universal health care is massively cheaper in the real world, if you're asking "How you gonna pay for it?" for a policy that would save Trillions of dollars, you aren't making a cogent or serious argument, you are making excuses for not doing the right thing and repeating amoral corporate talking points.
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Post by lagatta on Mar 17, 2020 15:13:34 GMT
Many of the non-US residents here live in countries that already have an NHS. Yes, they all have shortcomings, and in some places users have to pay a small fee, but nothing like in the US. Even most conservatives here don't want to abolish our health system (though some want to hollow it out via "reforms" such as PPPs and excluding certain services or body parts, making money in the process).
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Post by Kimby on Mar 17, 2020 20:19:13 GMT
Even those of us who think a moderate like Biden has a better chance to beat Trump are in favor of health care reform in America.
Biden would fix what the GOP has broken in Obamacare AND add a public option. If enough people select the public option, we’re halfway there.
If the Dems win control of Congress (less likely with Bernie as the nominee) reforms like negotiating drug prices will be achievable, and progressive steps like lowering the age for Medicare to 60 or 55 become doable.
More than dumping Trump, the Dems need to gain control in Congress, and state legislatures and governors offices. In this census year, redistricting will happen, and America cannot take more Republican gerrymandering.
I and many others see Biden as having longer coat-tails than Bernie for the “down-ballot” races.
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Post by kerouac2 on Mar 17, 2020 20:27:19 GMT
Isn't Congress supposed to legislate health care (and just about everything else) anyway? If an adequate bill passed, do you think that a President Biden would veto it?
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Post by Kimby on Mar 17, 2020 20:38:22 GMT
I can’t see Biden vetoing any Dem-passed or bipartisan bill on health care. But the Government Accounting Office weighs in on the costs of all bills, so there’s that. May be some back and forth to gain bipartisan support.
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Post by Kimby on Mar 18, 2020 1:02:17 GMT
From an AP story, following voting in today’s primaries in Florida and Illinois (and Arizona, but polls hadn’t closed yet there):
“"It's definitely eerie," said Jesse Lehrich, a Democratic operative and former Hillary Clinton campaign spokesman who is based in Chicago, who added, "Biden and Sanders are debating the merits of marginally different policies in this little pseudo-reality, while America is consumed by an unprecedented crisis."
Let’s move on and get working on coming together for the general election. The only way Bernie can win now is if Biden pops a gasket and dies, or some Y U G E scandal erupts.
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Post by Kimby on Mar 18, 2020 2:40:35 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 18, 2020 4:29:19 GMT
Progressive voices in the Democratic Party are already signaling they will react poorly to a Klobuchar pick. <-- me, signaling my reaction.
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Post by Jazz on Mar 18, 2020 22:55:00 GMT
Bixa, your emoji of vomiting isn't clear to me. What do you mean?
1. You hate the idea of Amy Klobuchar as a possible vice president?
OR:
2. You hate the idea of the Progressive voices (Sanders, your favorite) voting against the possible platform of the final Democratic pick, Biden. (although, I think, not what you want) Earlier in this thread, I think you clarified to Fumobici that you were against the Sanders' supporters voting against Clinton/ or not voting at all in 2016 and thus ensuring the election of Trump.
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Post by bixaorellana on Mar 19, 2020 0:00:03 GMT
Hi, Jazz.
The barf emoji was specifically directed at the idea of wincing Amy as vice-president and just generally at the idea of Joe "Travesty" Biden as president.
But yes, the idea of people refusing to vote and thus allowing Trump to get re-elected is too painful to be borne.
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Post by kerouac2 on Mar 20, 2020 18:38:48 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 2, 2020 19:06:23 GMT
Okay, I'm on a different continent although I try to follow American political news. But it appears to me that Biden and Sanders have basically been struck mute or else the mainstream media are complete ignoring them. To use the example of France, there was a brief period of "national unity" but now all of the opposition politicians are in their full litany of "Macron has done everything wrong" or "the government paid no attention to the warning signs" or "I would have done everything better because I understand the situation better than anybody else." I haven't really read anything about what Sanders or Biden would have done better. Or perhaps they think that Trump is the man for the job. And frankly, what the fuck about this Wisconsin primary? France already totally fucked up with the municipal elections, but at least there was no lockdown yet. (It didn't start until the following day. ) And the Wisconsin Democrats are going ahead with their primary during lockdown? Why?
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Post by lagatta on Apr 2, 2020 21:33:01 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 8, 2020 15:27:59 GMT
So, Bernie Sanders has thrown in the towel. Now the question is whether he will assist Donald Trump to be reelected.
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Post by fumobici on Apr 8, 2020 15:53:52 GMT
Biden is such a deeply flawed candidate, it's going to be really difficult to unseat Trump in November. I doubt I'll be voting for Biden, he's not only politically toxic to me, he has serious character issues that would disqualify my supporting him even from an ordinary job never mind POTUS. Yes I know and acknowledge that Trump is worse, but neither is even remotely qualified for the job. The corrupt Democratic Party will need to be burnt to the ground before we can fix this.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 8, 2020 16:24:08 GMT
My own feeling about all of the flawed candidates for whom I have been 'obliged' to vote over the years is that at least for major offices like president, they are limited in their noxious endeavours by all of the people around them. Even people like Reagan or Nixon did not manage to destroy the country. I will readily admit that Trump has taken this to an entirely new level with his incredible bullying talents and a mindless hardcore base that supports him out of a desire for vengeance, but I cannot imagine this happening again (unless Trump wins again). I always try to look at the complete 'team' when evaluating the candidate.
And then there is the question as to whether the current pandemic will change attitudes about certain elements of governance, such as the importance of a strong central government in certain circumstances.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 8, 2020 16:41:57 GMT
I'm sad, but Sanders spent the end of his campaign making a very salient point - the need for healthcare as a public good - and can continue to make it without campaigning for the Presidency.
I'm very glad I don't have to make such a choice.
I'd never vote for someone like Biden, but I do hope he chooses a progressive woman, probably somewhat younger but not necessarily "young" however at least a decade or two younger, ideally of colour. And of course, someone very competent.
Voting for Biden does remind me of friends voting for Chirac to block Le Pen père. The slogan "vote for the crook" originated in Louisiana when a corrupt pol was running against the neo-Nazi David Duke. (casimira and bixa, don't hesitate to correct me if I miseremembered this).
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 8, 2020 16:52:40 GMT
Has the concept of cutting off your nose to spite your face been completely forgotten or spurned?
If I voted in American elections, I would not have a problem voting for Biden simply on the basis of choosing "less evil" over "evil" rather than flushing my vote down the toilet just to prove the purity of my ideals.
(If the "protest" vote were at least 15%, I might join the protest crowd, but as long as it is below 5% it is both pointless and a bit pathetic.)
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Post by Kimby on Apr 8, 2020 17:34:31 GMT
Perhaps Bernie has been promised a role in a Biden administration. Secretary of Health and Human Services, perhaps?
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 8, 2020 17:41:03 GMT
Does he have medical credentials?
Oh, that was a stupid question. Posts do not seem to be doled out to people with qualifications for the jobs in the U.S. government, just like the posts of ambassador.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 8, 2020 17:48:57 GMT
And frankly, what the fuck about this Wisconsin primary? France already totally fucked up with the municipal elections, but at least there was no lockdown yet. (It didn't start until the following day. ) And the Wisconsin Democrats are going ahead with their primary during lockdown? Why? Kerouac, this debacle falls entirely on the Republicans who (due to extreme gerrymandering) hold power in the WI legislature and are using their power to solidify their control over the election process and the courts. The Democratic governor TRIED several ways to extend voting or delay the elections but the Legislature would not go along and the GOP dominated state Supreme Court backed them up, as did the SCOTUS. State law requires the election to happen now because over 1000 elected positions are being filled at the local level, positions that will be empty in two weeks time without an election. And there is also a very important state wide race to fill a Supreme Court seat now being occupied by a Scott Walker appointee. So it isn’t JUST a primary, and it isn’t just Democrats who are voting. Many voters who requested vote by mail absentee ballots by the stated deadline, have not received them, meaning they had to risk their health to vote in person, or give up their vote. Snowbirds who had not yet returned to WI and didn’t receive their absentee ballot on time were totally disenfranchised. The worst disenfranchisement of all is that of 180 polling places in Milwaukee, only 5 were open, with hours-long lines to vote. All the bigger cities - which tend to be more democratic - were experiencing long lines, while the small towns and rural areas dominated by Republicans had normal wait times. Kudos to voters who waited for their chance to execute their right to vote. This was a brazen power grab by the Republicans, and we will see if it is successfully challenged. This should not stand!
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Post by fumobici on Apr 8, 2020 18:05:34 GMT
Has the concept of cutting off your nose to spite your face been completely forgotten or spurned? If I voted in American elections, I would not have a problem voting for Biden simply on the basis of choosing "less evil" over "evil" rather than flushing my vote down the toilet just to prove the purity of my ideals. (If the "protest" vote were at least 15%, I might join the protest crowd, but as long as it is below 5% it is both pointless and a bit pathetic.) Let me get this straight: voting for anything other than the winning candidate is a wasted vote? Because that way lies madness if you think about it for more than two seconds. As for the "protest vote", reframe that as the protest non-vote, and you have a plurality of the American electorate—way more than 15%. You may say those non-votes don't count, fine; I say they do to me, I count them.
Biden is a right-wing, corrupt, serial pathological liar, with credible history of sexual misconduct. And yet, despite all that, I'd still vote for him if he came out forcefully and unconditionally for health care as a citizen's right—something we desperately need *now* more than ever, and not in some hazy, uncertain future. I'm willing to overlook all my strenuous objections to him both personally and to his long, egregious, and shameful record as a politician. All he has to do is take that one morally correct stand and I'll hold my nose and vote for him. And if he can't be a decent enough human being to do even that one moral, necessary thing, then screw him and screw the party he rode in on.
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Post by lagatta on Apr 8, 2020 18:23:04 GMT
Kerouac, neither Nye Bevan nor Tommy Douglas had medical credentials, but took the necessary steps to build a public health system in their respective countries.
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Post by kerouac2 on Apr 8, 2020 18:32:47 GMT
I'd still vote for him if he came out forcefully and unconditionally for health care as a citizen's right—something we desperately need *now* more than ever, That is a bit naïve if you think that the president controls such things. It's in the hands of the legislature. Look at how difficult it was for Obama to get even minimum coverage for some of the needy.
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Post by Kimby on Apr 8, 2020 20:06:20 GMT
I'd still vote for him if he came out forcefully and unconditionally for health care as a citizen's right—something we desperately need *now* more than ever, That is a bit naïve if you think that the president controls such things. It's in the hands of the legislature. Look at how difficult it was for Obama to get even minimum coverage for some of the needy. Perhaps fumobici and lagatta will be mollified if Biden chooses Bernie for a cabinet position, perhaps HHS?
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Post by Kimby on Apr 8, 2020 20:15:01 GMT
Does he have medical credentials? Oh, that was a stupid question. Posts do not seem to be doled out to people with qualifications for the jobs in the U.S. government, just like the posts of ambassador. Universal Health Care is Bernie’s signature issue. He’d find out soon enough - whether he’s a President or a Cabinet Secretary- that he’d have very little control over what happens without a cooperative Congress. Vote Blue all the way down the ballot.
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Post by bixaorellana on Apr 8, 2020 21:15:07 GMT
QUOTE: ... [Biden] still has to receive the party’s nomination, which happens at the Democratic National Convention in July. If Biden secures 1,991 pledged delegates at the DNC, which now seems likely, he will be the official nominee. ...voters can still choose Sanders in their state’s primary, which will allow him to continue to gather delegates. Currently, Sanders has 924 delegates to Biden’s 1,225. Staying on the ballot and acquiring more delegates heading into the DNC is something Sanders believes will give him the ability to influence the 2020 Democratic platform. "I will stay on the ballot and all remaining states and continue to gather delegates, while Vice President Biden will be the nominee," Sanders said in a speech Wednesday. "We must continue working to assemble as many delegates as possible at the Democratic Convention, where we will be able to exert significant influence over the party platform and other functions. ... Delegates won by candidates who have dropped out are encouraged to vote for the person endorsed by the former candidate they represent, but they do not have to and are technically free agents. END QUOTE sourceWhat is the process for write-in votes in the general election?
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Post by lagatta on Apr 8, 2020 21:40:48 GMT
Kimby, I'm not a US citizen, so my opinion is rather irrelevant in terms of the electoral contest down there*. Moreover, I voted for left candidates in the borough/riding (district or constituency) where I live and the federal, Québec and municipal candidates I voted for all won their elections, handily.
*In Montana, I think it is possible that you live north of me. Just looking on a map, a good part of Montana seems to be north of Montréal. However, in terms of the US I can certainly say "south of me", but thinking of Vermont and northern New York State.
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