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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 7:55:38 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 11, 2021 7:55:38 GMT
All those jealous of our independence will come back with some spurious argument, I'm sure. It's a defence mechanism to gloss over their shortcomings. To be expected really. Just wait, there will be some 'cutting comment' on its way.
As an aside, there is some psychological principle I know of I want to use to illustrate Brexit and it's opposition. I need to research into it though don't have time for now.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 9:21:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Jul 11, 2021 9:21:44 GMT
Typical EU, all take and no give, we shouldn't be paying them a penny Hi Mossie You know i like ypu, so don't take it personnaly but don't you see how I perceive things ? You say : typical of Europe, we should not give a penny. I say : it shows that a good part of the Brexit campaign focused in : let us leave it costs us too much hss struck home. This argument says basically that you ate richer than is (arrogant) and more awful that your money must atay in your pocket. So that you don't want to help the poorer in need. That soynd like 'America first', or worse, fuck the others. This argument goes in line with another one widely used that UK would tegain control of its immigration. That also sounds like 'let us build a wall' and fuck the others. The biggest trouble is when the others - like me - deciphering this 'independance' as a xenophobic populist selfish move - say so, a lot of far right populist UK citizens will claim that we are all against them, 'nobody likes us, see, we were right to get away from them'. Which makes the boucle perfectly tight : you reject others, and when others say so you cry that everybody rejects you. When you are actually nice people, why don't you open up ? Again, don't take it personnaly, i love most of UK and i like you a lot more than you would think, having met you only once.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 9:52:10 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 11, 2021 9:52:10 GMT
Found it. Ok, I know K2 probably won’t get past the first two sentences of this but others may examine it more closely. There is a Finnish company, Hofstede, - “Our data-driven analysis pinpoints the role and scope of culture in your organisation’s success.” “Anchored in rigorous academic theory, we can reflect on over 30 years in business and the thousands of companies we have helped...” They are well known and respected specialising in assisting companies expanding into different countries. They are based in sound psychological principles. To cut it down to the basics, their research shows the differences generally in the culture and attitudes of one country comparing it with another or several. One criterion is individualism. This relates to whether a person/group/country prefers to be part of a group or not. Regarding the UK the result is - “At a score of 89 the UK is amongst the highest of the Individualist scores, beaten only by some of the commonwealth countries it spawned i.e. Australia and the USA. The British are a highly Individualist and private people.” As opposed to, for example, Portugal - “Portugal, in comparison with the rest of the European countries (except for Spain) is Collectivist (because of its score in this dimension: 27). This is manifest in a close long-term commitment to the member ‘group’.....” The second criterion of relevance to Brexit (though most of those you can see later in the link play a part no doubt) is that of Uncertainty Avoidance - “The dimension Uncertainty Avoidance has to do with the way that a society deals with the fact that the future can never be known: should we try to control the future or just let it happen?” For again Portugal - “Portugal scores 99 on this dimension and thus has a very high preference for avoiding uncertainty.” For the UK - “At 35 the UK has a low score on Uncertainty Avoidance which means that as a nation they are quite happy to wake up not knowing what the day brings and they are happy to ‘make it up as they go along’ changing plans as new information comes to light. Most importantly the combination of a highly Individualist and curious nation is a high level of creativity and strong need for innovation.” Conclusion - any country that is generally Collectivist wants to be part of a group and cannot understand an Individualist country that doesn’t. Any country that wants to avoid uncertainty cannot understand a country that will willingly leave a secure group, with the resultant unknown and uncertain future that brings. That’s possibly why many Europeans and worldwide countries cannot understand the Brexit decision. It’s not in their culture. Obviously the whole picture is more complicated, but distilling it down to a minimum, that’s what I think. Put up to four countries in this page and see the results comparing one with the other in six categories - www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison/
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 10:04:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Jul 11, 2021 10:04:23 GMT
Probably because we are an island nation whereas much if the EU has shared borders and regular interchange.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 10:39:32 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 11, 2021 10:39:32 GMT
More than likely a factor in their mindset Mick.
Huckle, it is mentioned that they are generalising about cultures and individuals differ. It's not that the characteristics apply to everyone, more that when taking the country/culture in total, these traits are more common. There are reams of information and research papers on the subject of collectivism as opposed to individualism from 'proper' psychological sources other than this. As to if the information in all of them, because they do generalise as is necessary, is meaningless... it's up to anyone to decide for themselves as to its validity and accuracy and if cultures as a whole do follow certain characteristics.
"The use of the term Masculinity as a positive in comparison to the implied negative of Femininity..." A higher score is not always a positive, nor is a lower score negative in any of the categories. It depends on your point of view as to if being, say individual is positive or being collective is positive - or - indulgence as another example. Australia is determined to be more of an indulgent society than a restrained one. It's just a sliding scale, not being that having a bigger column in the bar graph is positive. It makes no comments about what is positive or negative, just tells you that a culture is more of one thing or another - and yes, it does attribute certain characteristics to males as opposed to females, they are also generalisations, but you can't disagree that on the whole males are more aggressive and females are more caring.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 12:37:49 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 11, 2021 12:37:49 GMT
What a bunch of horseshit (not you,huckle!). I was asking about the 47.5 billion euros the the UK is obliged to pay, but you seem to have sidestepped the issue. If everything is going so well, you ought to be able to pay the amount twice as fast and get bonus points for not practicing uncertainty avoidance.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 15:35:56 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 11, 2021 15:35:56 GMT
You read it K2? I'm honoured. Though I doubt those that did the research by the company and the many others not connected don't feel it is an honour for their work to be called horseshit and balderdash. Focussing on Individualism versus Collectivism for now just to show that all those in the following link, concerning scientific papers they have submitted on that and associated subjects, seem all to be wrong then - journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/106939719302700301I was asking about the 47.5 billion euros the the UK is obliged to pay, but you seem to have sidestepped the issue. Apart from saying, "That's one interpretation of why we are paying in instalments. Not shown to be the correct interpretation but also as a tease, only three out of ten for that." I'll also then say that in simple terms, why should they pay the whole lot in one go when they can hang on to as much as possible to get the benefit of the economics involved. Do you think France, in fact any country, who has the billions would say, "Ok, no problem, I'll give it you all now." when they can defer payment? If these terms are equal, then the term Feminity could have been chosen but was not. To me, this certainly reflects a bias. Which makes all the other information balderdash? To say that the UK doesn't play well with others and has in comparison, little fear of the unknown as a consequence of their decisions, is quite a valid reason for voting how they did. Another country may be a team player and would hate not to have everything mapped out for their future. They wouldn't have voted to leave. To say that cultures/countries do not have general traits is also balderdash and horseshit.
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 16:42:19 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 11, 2021 16:42:19 GMT
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2021 17:57:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Jul 11, 2021 17:57:19 GMT
I like the word balderdash.
It translates into equally beautiful french 'balivernes' or 'fadaises' which sounds more from the south (tous des fadas...).
Or more familiar 'couillonnades', carabistouilles (!), even 'conneries'.
We should revert to French in the EU...
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 7:09:48 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 12, 2021 7:09:48 GMT
The whole website (yes, I read most of it,) is written in a style comparable to what is commonly called psycho-babble, lots of wordage with little real meaning = balderdash. That's true enough but it is just laid out in a way to make it understandable. The link I posted just before your last shows some of the serious research that this is based upon. There is also the same regarding all the categories - regarding female/male traits the bar chart is horizontal which may have stopped any allegations of sexism and bias which seems to have set off the dismissal of all the rest of it. The principle of Collectivism v Individualism in cultures/nations is authentic, as is the Uncertainty Avoidance principle, and it's disheartening when it is all just dismissed as unbelievable on a whim by the unqualified. Fair enough, but then the idea was to show a possibility as to why Brexit occurred as it seems most of the World cannot understand it. I am open to anyone else putting forward a rational explanation. You first Huckle....
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 8:04:31 GMT
Post by bjd on Jul 12, 2021 8:04:31 GMT
I don't quite understand why 5 years later, Brexit voters are still trying to justify it. It's over, done. Nobody else cares.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 8:40:24 GMT
Post by onlyMark on Jul 12, 2021 8:40:24 GMT
Wasn't a justification, that's a different thing. But being abroad a lot means I am often asked as the the reason, it's not done and dusted. Also maybe if nobody cares, why is it so often brought up still in one form or another, on here never mind elsewhere, even in talks about football of all things and how the UK is supposedly having problems. If the conclusion is thought wrong, no problem. But if the evidence is deemed to be horseshit and balderdash the conclusion is based on, that's a different matter, when the evidence really is legitimate, authoritative and well founded.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 9:20:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Jul 12, 2021 9:20:43 GMT
But you do care bjd. See your post July 10 7.23am and whatagain’s post July 9 7.35pm in the European Football Championships thread.
Hence my post that started this all off.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 10:17:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Jul 12, 2021 10:17:45 GMT
Problem with Brexit is that it is not done. It is actually only starting since no real agreements have been signed.
So we are discovering day by day what is to happen.
Kind of tourism questions : What kind of a visa shall i need to go to UK ? How long can I stay ?
Questions for students : Is that such a good idea to do an Erasmus in London ? Is it still feasible, what are the costs ?
Questions for the economy : All the imported products are following european norms. Will these norms be kept ? Will they be translated into UK norms, will all suppliers have to pay for those homologations another time to export to UK ?
Not much of it is clear.
All fools who have followed a few lessons of economics know that removing barriers and taxes boosts economy. UK is adding them. Impact ?
We are not even at the end of the beginning of Brexit.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 11:40:15 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 12, 2021 11:40:15 GMT
Brexit just needs more international supporters. There are already the Trump gang, Russia and Marine Le Pen, plus that guy in the Netherlands. Just need a few more to balance things out.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 12:02:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Jul 12, 2021 12:02:36 GMT
Give it a rest for crying out loud.
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Brexit
Jul 12, 2021 17:11:12 GMT
Post by fumobici on Jul 12, 2021 17:11:12 GMT
The nuts and bolts of Brexit will be ongoing for years still. Most of the process beyond the facile, triumphalist "Mission Accomplished" rhetoric remains to be negotiated. We're still early days here, this is no time to lose focus.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2021 9:34:35 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Aug 30, 2021 9:34:35 GMT
Shortages have started in England (Northern Ireland has been struggling for a while) The government is saying that this is due to a shortage of lorry drivers. Fruit Farmers can't get aggricultural workers over for harvesting, the hospitality industry is on it's knees (staffing). In Leicester many pubs, cafés and restaurants are closing with the double whammy of covid and Brexit. Their lovely EU workers have gone home and won't be back.
Im sure that it will settle down, if British people aren't willing to work in seasonal or traditionally low paid jobs (and generally these are very demanding) those industries will collapse. OR we will just have to start paying staff more altho even then most Brits don't want to do this kind of work. Lorry driving used to be highly paid but these days not so much.
Squeezing the benefits bill is currently underway. Son has lost half of his benefits overnight. A senior consultant and our GP say one thing, but the medically unqualified clerk who rang him for his annual assessment reckons she knows better. Russ isn't alone, thousands of disabled folk are suddenly being hit with huge 'social care' bills from local councils because the government has slashed their funding. A chap with severe disabilities reliant on social care has gone from paying £20 per week to over £100. Basically he will have to go without aid (basic care) to pay his bills and hope that he can manage (a charity has stepped in in this case)
I think that it will all get sorted out eventually, it's just that the process is quite difficult.
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Brexit
Aug 30, 2021 9:58:34 GMT
Post by bjd on Aug 30, 2021 9:58:34 GMT
It's not a good sign when charities have to step in and cover what the government is not willing to do. It sounds more and more like the States.
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Brexit
Sept 25, 2021 13:43:07 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 25, 2021 13:43:07 GMT
Just wondering what the situation is now. The continental media have come up with quite a few negative reports recently, but I'm wondering how the people on the island feel about things.
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Brexit
Sept 25, 2021 15:14:45 GMT
Post by fumobici on Sept 25, 2021 15:14:45 GMT
Just wondering what the situation is now. The continental media have come up with quite a few negative reports recently, but I'm wondering how the people on the island feel about things. Sorry, all our UK based posters are stuck in petrol queues.
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Brexit
Sept 28, 2021 13:11:20 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 28, 2021 13:11:20 GMT
I find it very fitting that the COP 26 climate conference will be held in the UK. I hope that we can count on the British to push for a quicker end to thermal vehicles as they should have extra motivation now.
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Brexit
Sept 28, 2021 19:26:26 GMT
Post by lugg on Sept 28, 2021 19:26:26 GMT
Sorry, all our UK based posters are stuck in petrol queues. I hope that we can count on the British to push for a quicker end to thermal vehicles as they should have extra motivation now. I don't know if this will work but this sums it up for me , live.staticflickr.com/65535/51529221065_18873bcf41_b.jpg
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Brexit
Sept 30, 2021 10:26:00 GMT
Post by mickthecactus on Sept 30, 2021 10:26:00 GMT
I'd be in a petrol queue if I could find a garage with petrol. I went to 5 yesterday and all closed. it's ridiculous.
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Brexit
Sept 30, 2021 10:39:36 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 30, 2021 10:39:36 GMT
As for the lack of truck drivers, it isn't just in the UK of course. France is missing something like 50,000 truck drivers so it's very lucky to have an unlimited supply of Poles, Romanians, Lithuanians, Bulgarians, etc., who are willing to do all of the shit jobs for a pittance.
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Brexit
Sept 30, 2021 14:48:45 GMT
Post by mossie on Sept 30, 2021 14:48:45 GMT
Ever since we got the mad craze that everyone should go to university and graduate in such totally useless subjects as Anglo Saxon poetry it has been beneath our young to do such menial work as truck driving. Now at least 50% go to second rate 'uni' with the thought that they will be well paid to polish the arse of their trousers at a posh desk job in a swanky office for good money. Talk about going to hell in a handcart, we are well on the way. Thank God I won't have to put up with it for much longer.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2021 19:01:56 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Oct 22, 2021 19:01:56 GMT
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2021 20:02:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Oct 22, 2021 20:02:25 GMT
m Load of nonsense. All the supermarkets I use have plenty of stock. Fake news. And Asparagus at this time of the year? Asparagus finished months ago.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2021 20:15:25 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Oct 22, 2021 20:15:25 GMT
Well, I am certainly no expert. I just see things in the British press... I didn't know they were making it up.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2021 20:24:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Oct 22, 2021 20:24:09 GMT
The press making it up? Surely not..,,
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