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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 10:13:03 GMT
Post by lugg on Sept 24, 2019 10:13:03 GMT
YES such very good news . Prorogation unlawful. Here is an extract
This prolonged suspension of parliamentary democracy took place in quite exceptional circumstances: the fundamental change which was due to take place in the constitution of the United Kingdom on 31 October. Parliament, and in particular the House of Commons as the elected representatives of the people, has a right to a voice in how that change comes about. The effect upon the fundamentals of our democracy was extreme.
No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put before the court. The only evidence of why it was taken is the memorandum from Nikki da Costa of 15 August. This explains why holding the Queen’s speech to open a new session of parliament on 14th October would be desirable. It does not explain why it was necessary to bring parliamentary business to a halt for five weeks before that, when the normal period necessary to prepare for the Queen’s speech is four to six days. It does not discuss the difference between prorogation and recess. It does not discuss the impact of prorogation on the special procedures for scrutinising the delegated legislation necessary to achieve an orderly withdrawal from the European Union, with or without a withdrawal agreement, on 31 October. It does not discuss what parliamentary time would be needed to secure parliamentary approval for any new withdrawal agreement, as required by section 13 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
The court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification.
The next and final question, therefore, is what the legal effect of that finding is and therefore what remedies the court should grant. The court can certainly declare that the advice was unlawful. The Inner House went further and declared that any prorogation resulting from it was null and of no effect. The government argues that the Inner House could not do that because the prorogation was a “proceeding in parliament” which, under the Bill of Rights of 1688 cannot be impugned or questioned in any court. But it is quite clear that the prorogation is not a proceeding in parliament. It takes place in the House of Lords chamber in the presence of members of both houses, but it is not their decision. It is something which has been imposed upon them from outside. It is not something on which members can speak or vote. It is not the core or essential business of parliament which the Bill of Rights protects. Quite the reverse: it brings that core or essential business to an end.
This court has already concluded that the prime minister’s advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, void and of no effect. This means that the order in council to which it led was also unlawful, void and of no effect and should be quashed. This means that when the royal commissioners walked into the House of Lords it was as if they walked in with a blank sheet of paper. The prorogation was also void and of no effect. Parliament has not been prorogued. This is the unanimous judgment of all 11 justices.
It is for parliament, and in particular the Speaker and the Lord Speaker to decide what to do next. Unless there is some parliamentary rule of which we are unaware, they can take immediate steps to enable each house to meet as soon as possible. It is not clear to us that any step is needed from the prime minister, but if it is, the court is pleased that his counsel have told the court that he will take all necessary steps to comply with the terms of any declaration made by this court.
It follows that the advocate general’s appeal in the case of Cherry is dismissed and Mrs Miller’s appeal is allowed. The same declarations and orders should be made in each case.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 10:38:30 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 24, 2019 10:38:30 GMT
I feel as though the country is going into a tailspin, though. When Parliament reconvenes, I suppose they are just going to continue yelling at each other until October 31st and beyond.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 10:44:14 GMT
Post by lugg on Sept 24, 2019 10:44:14 GMT
Maybe K2 ,but this is a victory for democracy. Hopefully BoJo will resign and his nasty little advisor too. No statement from him yet that I have seen anyway.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 13:33:20 GMT
Post by questa on Sept 24, 2019 13:33:20 GMT
Our piss-weak PM is such a good friend of bojo I hope he resigns in sympathy with your chap. Probably not reported over in your neck of the woods, but our coward didn't attend the Environment council even though he is in New York dancing the fandango with Trump.
A pox on all their houses!
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 14:24:22 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 24, 2019 14:24:22 GMT
Definitely mentioned in France -- the absence of Bolsonaro of Brazil and Morrison of Australia. Trump was mentioned as the third member of the trio, but in the end he strangely showed up at the environmental event for a little while so that he could disgustingly mock Greta Thunberg on Twitter.
I don't have much positive to say about Boris Johnson, but at least he was not part of the other despicable group.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 14:47:26 GMT
Post by mossie on Sept 24, 2019 14:47:26 GMT
So the Westminster Wankers have won another battle in their fight to frustrate Brexit. We had all better start to learn Chinese because they will soon be in charge. So glad I haven't got much longer to see this country going totally down the pan.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 15:06:59 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 24, 2019 15:06:59 GMT
I know absolutely nothing about the British supreme court, but I was very surprised that it was a unanimous decision, since I presume that all of the members are not of the same political persuasion. Therefore I must assume that Bojo's shenanigans were legally outlandish.
Mossie, it is when the UK leaves the EU that you will sell yourselves to the Chinese. The Americans can't afford you.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 18:19:36 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 24, 2019 18:19:36 GMT
What a mess. I don't think that it'll make a blind bit of difference. STILL they all procrastinate and argue amongst themselves...all jostling for position and failing completely to get on with the job. As Andrew Neil said (cant stand the man) we're heading for constitutional crisis.
The leave voters are incandescent with rage, cant say I blame them even if I can't agree with their choice. It could maybe be argued that parliament itself is acting illegally for failing honour a democratic vote in a timely manner. I dunno....
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 18:55:15 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 24, 2019 18:55:15 GMT
How can a country without a constitution have a constitutional crisis? I guess it can have a Magna Carta crisis, albeit 900 years late.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 19:07:17 GMT
Post by bjd on Sept 24, 2019 19:07:17 GMT
What a mess. I don't think that it'll make a blind bit of difference. STILL they all procrastinate and argue amongst themselves...all jostling for position and failing completely to get on with the job. As Andrew Neil said (cant stand the man) we're heading for constitutional crisis. The leave voters are incandescent with rage, cant say I blame them even if I can't agree with their choice. It could maybe be argued that parliament itself is acting illegally for failing honour a democratic vote in a timely manner. I dunno.... It was hardly a "democratic vote". It was a referendum called to appease Euroskeptics in the Conservative Party. The referendum campaign itself was based on lies by Farage, Johnson and other leavers, and little information in favour of remaining by the opposing camp since the latter believed they would win. Just today I heard some consultant to the Conservative Party saying that Johnson had to satisfy the 17.something million voters who voted Leave. As far as I know, the population of Britain is somewhere over 60 million, so that is far from a majority.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 19:57:23 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 24, 2019 19:57:23 GMT
I know, but they've put it out there as a proper vote, even tho we all know that a referendum is an opinion seeking e exercise rather than a policy deciding vote. If the government had only made that clear instead of allowing the Brexit leave victors, led by Farage, Johnson and the likes of Rees-Mogg...aided by the right wing media act like it was a fate accompli (sp?). The Leavers were misled just like the rest of us. My cousin is a staunch leaver, an intelligent bloke...his argument being that as soon as article 50 was triggered the leave faction assumed that was it! Leave in March. People honestly believed that the UK would just walk away...negotiations? Pfft.
I'm just tired of it all, I hate the very thought of us leaving but the vitriol and hate mongering I've witnessed by a lot of brexiteers (not ALL I hasten to add), Union Jack waving, foreigner hating, hanging and flogging supporting, largely white poorly educated disenfranchised (in their eyes) thuggish people scares me rigid. I'm embarrassed by the appalling behaviour of Brexit MEPs, I'm sick of it all. Europe is probably glad to see the back of us and have already said goodbye anyway...they have negotiated with our ridiculously ill prepared representatives and put up with so much indecision and faffing it's a wonder they haven't just walked away. Even if there was an INFORMED referendum the leave camp would never accept the result.
I'm not expressing myself very well.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:12:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Sept 24, 2019 20:12:25 GMT
I Fully understand you cheery. Coming from a country that is also on course to disaster for much longer but going much slower Understand your emotions.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:12:59 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Sept 24, 2019 20:12:59 GMT
You are totally correct about there being no going back now. The EU has written you off while hoping to welcome Scotland before long.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:17:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Sept 24, 2019 20:17:09 GMT
Remain tactic was to use Project Fear. One of the main reasons I voted leave.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:21:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on Sept 24, 2019 20:21:41 GMT
How does the Labour party negotiate a new deal and then put it to the people?
I haven’t heard the EU say that a change of government means they will completely renegotiate. The only deal is the one rejected again and again as far as I am aware.
Sick and tired of it all. Not sure I really care what happens as long as something happens.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:48:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Sept 24, 2019 20:48:10 GMT
I have in some difficult commercial negotiations. Sometimes the best way to handle was to say that it was urgent to do nothing. A no deal would be a lose lose situation.
But I fear that a Bojo us leading us all to a lose more lose more.
So yes doing nothing until someone smart enough (in the uk, no small feat for the moment) finds a better way. In out whatever. Just losing less.
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Brexit
Sept 24, 2019 20:49:52 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on Sept 24, 2019 20:49:52 GMT
(Highlighting is mine.) THANK YOU, ladies!!! This cannot be said often enough! It was hardly a "democratic vote". It was a referendum called to appease Euroskeptics in the Conservative Party. I know, but they've put it out there as a proper vote, even tho we all know that a referendum is an opinion seeking exercise rather than a policy deciding vote. If the government had only made that clear instead of allowing the Brexit leave victors, led by Farage, Johnson and the likes of Rees-Mogg...aided by the right wing media act like it was a fate accompli (sp?). The Leavers were misled just like the rest of us. My cousin is a staunch leaver, an intelligent bloke...his argument being that as soon as article 50 was triggered the leave faction assumed that was it! Leave in March. People honestly believed that the UK would just walk away...negotiations? Pfft.
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Brexit
Sept 25, 2019 0:34:25 GMT
Post by questa on Sept 25, 2019 0:34:25 GMT
My remedy would be lock all the warring factions in a large empty room with toilet facilities but no showers. Feed them the same food as prisoners in the local prisons get...no perks. Suspend their salaries. If anyone wants to leave they must resign from politics completely. Tell them they will be held like this until all parties come to an agreement on what they are going to do about this mess and when will it be done.
Set the guards and leave them to it.
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Brexit
Sept 25, 2019 5:55:36 GMT
Post by bjd on Sept 25, 2019 5:55:36 GMT
Remain tactic was to use Project Fear. One of the main reasons I voted leave. According to Wiki: It (Project Fear) later reappeared during EU membership referendum campaigning ahead of the 2016 UK referendum on EU membership, being used to criticise the campaign being run by Britain Stronger in Europe, supporters of the UK remaining in the European Union. Former Mayor of London and key figurehead of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson, re-introduced the term. He put forward claims that the pro-EU campaign was guilty of scaremongering, saying that "the agents of Project Fear" were trying to "spook" the British public into voting against British withdrawal from the European Union.[5][6] It was first used in the Scottish referendum in 2014.
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Brexit
Sept 25, 2019 15:23:59 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 25, 2019 15:23:59 GMT
I think that the voting public assumed that politicians from all the parties would work together for the good of the UK. Putting aside inter and intra party squabbles. We have been let down catastrophically. All they seem to do is point the finger at the representatives of their opposition and spit blame them for the mess. Boris, Rees-Mogg and Farage should be in the Tower (I know I've said it before). Labour need to sort themselves out and start singing from the same hymn sheet, as do the liberal Democrats.
The thing about the remain campaign that I remember....is that there wasn't one.
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Brexit
Sept 26, 2019 9:42:51 GMT
Post by bjd on Sept 26, 2019 9:42:51 GMT
I find it strange that Bojo is able to say that the 11 supreme court judges who agreed unanimously that his decision to close down Parliament were "wrong". Is he now a legal scholar? What does it show the wider public if the Prime Minister calls legality into question? Is he copying Trump or has he always been such an asshole?
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Brexit
Sept 26, 2019 13:10:40 GMT
Post by mossie on Sept 26, 2019 13:10:40 GMT
I think BoJo has been taking lessons from his new best friend Donald. Although he is fairly deep in his own shit. What wonderful leaders we do have.
But Cheery, surely you remember the doomsday scenario painted by Project Fear, strongly promoted by Cameron and his little weasel Osbourne. If we dared step outside the loving arms of the EU, it was pass go direct to hell.
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Brexit
Sept 26, 2019 13:17:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by whatagain on Sept 26, 2019 13:17:21 GMT
Maybe Hell for UK is better than purgatory for all. So what is Bojo next move ?
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Brexit
Sept 26, 2019 18:57:42 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 26, 2019 18:57:42 GMT
Mossie, most of the information I got was from radio 4, the Guardian and the i newspapers, friends and colleagues. Pointless waiting for the politicians to come up with anything. I thought that Farage and Johnson were ridiculous..nobody could possibly listen to them! Most of my pathology colleagues , the medics and university staff thought that it was a forgone conclusion leave? Surely that wouldnt happen! Leicester city voted to remain.
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Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 7:04:56 GMT
Post by bjd on Sept 27, 2019 7:04:56 GMT
On the bright side, Brexit will make the Brexit Party and its horrible leader Farage no longer justified -- their raison d'être will be gone.
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Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 11:25:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by patricklondon on Sept 27, 2019 11:25:21 GMT
On the bright side, Brexit will make the Brexit Party and its horrible leader Farage no longer justified -- their raison d'être will be gone. That's what you think. He has plans for promoting "direct" rather than representative democracy, and has made noises, in effect, politicising impartial professional regulators that have got up his nose, like the Electoral Commission (and now, no doubt, the Supreme Court). Building the Brexit party: how Nigel Farage copied Italy's digital populists
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Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 18:34:44 GMT
Post by lugg on Sept 27, 2019 18:34:44 GMT
I guess I was naïve in hoping that there would be some progress in parliament. This last few days has been hideous. Using the murder of Jo Cox is the lowest of the low.
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Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 19:03:31 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on Sept 27, 2019 19:03:31 GMT
My...usually pretty uninterested- oldest boy has just rung for a 25 minute rant about Brexit. Both my boys voted remain, in their thirties they've grown up within the EU and consider themselves European citizens. He was very shouty and cross about the latest developments and knows he'll get a sympathetic ear here. I'm exhausted now....
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Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 16:05:59 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Oct 4, 2019 16:05:59 GMT
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Brexit
Oct 15, 2019 15:37:53 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on Oct 15, 2019 15:37:53 GMT
Just two weeks to go! Yippee! This thread began in February 2016 and it has lasted long enough.
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