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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 16:22:48 GMT
I just thought I'd put it out there. It's not anything we seemed to have discussed on these boards in any great depth. I am absolutely heartsick this morning at the thought of the seemingly unprovoked murders of two young black men by police. I can't write about my lunch, or post photos of my weekend, because this country, the one I am sitting in this morning, is lost. I am starting my husband's immigration process to Canada today. Philando CastileAlton Sterling136 Black People Killed By Police In 2016And lest we think this is solely an American phenomenon: People at the incerdibly high-profile Pride parade in Toronto this past weekend (the Prime Minister danced in a pink shirt and white jeans, dontcha know) were outraged when Black Lives Matter halted the parade for a few minutes. Things are coming to a head, people. The class, race, and culture wars are imminent.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 7, 2016 16:39:15 GMT
I've read that young black males are three to nine times more likely to be shot by the Police than any other group. It'd be more powerful if the various studies would agree on a figure, as three times may be underestimating and nine times more likely may be scaremongering. In any case, it is an appalling figure. What is the solution?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 18:51:50 GMT
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Post by lagatta on Jul 7, 2016 19:48:34 GMT
That is horrible. The only group here to get an equivalent degree of mistreatment from the police is the Indigenous population (a much smaller percentage of the population, but rapidly growing). Of course there is racism and bigotry against people of African descent and other "racialized" groups, but nowhere near the same frequency of police killings, even taking population difference into account.
I heard something about the police injuring a 15-year-old boy, but didn't catch the whole story.
Edited to add "here" as I was comparing the US and Canada.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 21:27:42 GMT
The only thing that is really obvious is that the police are trigger happy since there are so many guns in circulation.
There are plenty of unjustified police controls in France but extremely few shootings just because the police rarely have to worry about being shot while they are doing what they think is their job.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 22:09:17 GMT
All I know is that the police in the US are shooting a lot more black men than white guys, regardless of who is holding the gun. I would say that the difference between France and USA is that perhaps France doesn't have an unspoken policy of extermination. This is from The Guardian report last year:
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Post by lagatta on Jul 7, 2016 22:15:30 GMT
Yes, there have been many bavures in France (unjustified police violence, including killings) targeting minorities, in particular North Africans and Subsaharan Africans but they always raise protests, and I don't believe they are anywhere near as common as what is going on in the US.
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Post by fumobici on Jul 8, 2016 1:21:07 GMT
The answer is to hold police who murder black people accountable but that's apparently politically impossible to do. Young racist white men who want to kill non-whites with total impunity have two huge government job programs in the US where they know they can do exactly that: the active duty military and law enforcement. It's pretty much the same demographic in either and many do law enforcement after the military. Even in cities where some political will exists to do something about it, the police unions won't allow it. I don't see any way to change the ugly reality as long as police and military continue to be fetishized as sacred, untouchable tribes. Even the most vile of them are still "heroes" in the eyes of the white public.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 1:53:55 GMT
Cell phone cameras are beginning to turn the tide, though. That and social media.
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Post by deyana on Jul 8, 2016 4:02:45 GMT
The answer is to hold police who murder black people accountable but that's apparently politically impossible to do. Young racist white men who want to kill non-whites with total impunity have two huge government job programs in the US where they know they can do exactly that: the active duty military and law enforcement. It's pretty much the same demographic in either and many do law enforcement after the military. Even in cities where some political will exists to do something about it, the police unions won't allow it. I don't see any way to change the ugly reality as long as police and military continue to be fetishized as sacred, untouchable tribes. Even the most vile of them are still "heroes" in the eyes of the white public. Well said, fumobici. And until the general public stops looking at cops as if they are Gods, and can do no wrong, nothing will change.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 4:10:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 4:32:01 GMT
That is certainly not going to help the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 5:03:44 GMT
And…gunshots in my Seattle neighbourhood tonight. A little release of tension, you might say.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 5:42:59 GMT
I'm with Donald Trump -- if everybody had a gun, none of this would happen. (They'd all be dead.)
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Post by mossie on Jul 8, 2016 8:02:11 GMT
I have to admit i was surprised at the number of blacks shot by police in USA, and also not surprised at the backlash in Dallas. Is there any chance Americans can come to their senses and control guns?
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 8, 2016 8:45:48 GMT
The short answer is no. The long answer is hell no.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 8, 2016 11:17:46 GMT
Reading about the incident in Dallas, Police Chief David Brown said, "We do not have a comfort level that we have all the suspects." Jeez, talk properly man for god's sake. You make it sound like a sofa. I presume at the moment you have an "uncomfort level" then.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 12:34:34 GMT
David Brown needs to make a trip to Ikea.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 8, 2016 12:44:06 GMT
Irreverent but, A mate of mine went a bit crazy and was taken to hospital thinking he was a sofa. I phoned up later to ask how he was. They replied, "comfortable".
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Post by tod2 on Jul 8, 2016 16:34:22 GMT
Oh Mark, you always know how to lighten the mood. I thought we in South Africa were the racists. Why are so many law enforcement officers in the US, who put their lives on the line every day, so jittery? From what I have seen and know of the United States it seems there are similarities to the South African scene. Our education system in apartheid years let Africans receive a much lower education level. If you think that's bad, since the introduction of Nelson Mandela and subsequent black leaders ruling the country the education system has fallen into chaos and is as bad as ever. Failing the majority in apartheid years was bad enough but failing your nation who's hopes and dreams are dwindling as I write, it the absolute pits.
So where does this all lead...? Well simply put, to crime, crime, crime and hopelessness and a furious population who don't know what the hell do do or who the hell to trust. I suspect the police are being attacked by the minority population who are in a similar position as our majority. Please tell me if my perceptions are right or wrong.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 8, 2016 20:00:24 GMT
I wonder if the comfort level of the Dallas Police Chief has increased if they now think there was only one shooter. They do, don't they? If so, why all the talk about at least three or four and "triangulating" the shooting from different roof tops? Is/was there just one?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 20:32:57 GMT
There are still 3 others in custody. Thought is, they may have been enablers. But yes, he is probably the only shooter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 22:03:42 GMT
Oh Mark, you always know how to lighten the mood. I thought we in South Africa were the racists. Why are so many law enforcement officers in the US, who put their lives on the line every day, so jittery? From what I have seen and know of the United States it seems there are similarities to the South African scene. Our education system in apartheid years let Africans receive a much lower education level. If you think that's bad, since the introduction of Nelson Mandela and subsequent black leaders ruling the country the education system has fallen into chaos and is as bad as ever. Failing the majority in apartheid years was bad enough but failing your nation who's hopes and dreams are dwindling as I write, it the absolute pits. So where does this all lead...? Well simply put, to crime, crime, crime and hopelessness and a furious population who don't know what the hell do do or who the hell to trust. I suspect the police are being attacked by the minority population who are in a similar position as our majority. Please tell me if my perceptions are right or wrong. Tod, I'm not sure what question you are posing. Who are you referring to as the furious population?
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Post by lagatta on Jul 8, 2016 23:44:59 GMT
It seems it was a single sniper, with military training (he had done a round of duty in Afghanistan). The military-industrial complex is so powerful in the US that enlisting is often the best means to advancement for poor racialized or rural people, and many towns depend on military industry or army bases.
He had been a soldier, and had access to military-type weapons that aren't just for hunting or self-defence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 2:17:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 4:37:06 GMT
Beside Mark Hughes, a "legally armed" man who went to the police after the shooting to ask if he could help -- and was immediately relieved of his weapon and detained as a suspect, I read that something like a dozen "good Texans" who had brought their guns to the rally immediately ran away when the shooting started.
I would be very interested in hearing the analysis of all of those people who claim that if everybody was armed, none of these massacres would happen.
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Post by tod2 on Jul 9, 2016 6:24:59 GMT
Lizzyfaire - Yes Lizzy. I was trying to point out that when people feel they have no hope of ever getting anywhere they become angry, violent, turn to crime and take the law into their own hands. It's happening here every minute of the day and night but we are a small nation and far far away from being reported on international news except for a few incidences.
I have never understood the fact that a person in America can waltz into a gun shop and buy a weapon like it's a loaf of bread. Our gun laws are very strict and before being issued with a licence for a gun you have to hop through several hoops including a test to show you are capable of using it correctly. And yes, we have thousands of illegal guns roaming around, and that is the great danger. Where do the guns come from? Some are stolen from properties where gun owners has failed to keep the gun under lock and key. And of course buying on the black market.
My thoughts are the gun laws need to change in America. But maybe it's too late...
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Post by questa on Jul 9, 2016 6:53:02 GMT
What new horrors have developed in the march of progress in killing one's own country folk. We have almost got to the point where firearms are as normal as cell phones and then Bang, out comes a Robot, programmed to trundle after the shooter and, when directed, blow the crazed former defender of his country to pieces.
OK, it possibly saved many lives by using a bomb, but that is what they said about Hiroshima.
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Post by onlyMark on Jul 9, 2016 8:07:53 GMT
Hmmm.... The article from Lizzy....... thought provoking..... whenever I read things like this I wonder what reactions would be if every time the word 'white' appeared, it was changed to 'black' or as she puts it, 'people of colour'. Then when you read it, would you think it showed, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race"....? If so, then it seems it is in itself racist. The point is, if anyone says something that is critical of a certain race, it can fall within the modern acceptance of what racism is.
So the litmus test of whether something is racist or not, is change the race that is the subject of the writing/speech etc. If you feel that what has been said would then be unacceptable to the new subject, then it is by definition, a racist statement no matter which race is originally targeted.
The white race has a lot to answer for, for what is happening now and what has happened over history. However, whites are still a race. This means, and you may think whites deserve all they get, but it still means other races can be racist towards them. Some think they can get a free pass in what they say because they are of an oppressed minority, but to stamp out racism, nobody of any race whatsoever has the right to be racist. There are no exceptions. Be it black on Asians, or vice versa, be it Japanese on Koreans etc etc.
If it is acceptable to tell 'home truths', as this Robin DiAngelo is doing, to the white race (whether I actually agree or disagree with her is not the issue but she does hit a few nails on the head), then what do you think the attitudes would be if home truths were told to another race? If one is ok, then the other must be ok for equality. That also beggars the question as to if a person can be racist to his/her own race?
Another question stems from the point that to really overcome a problem and not just put a band aid on it, you have to understand the roots and causes of it. Robin DiAngelo talks continually about white superiority. How did this come about?
The experts say eons ago man/woman originally developed in a part of the world then over thousands of years migrated to other parts. What was it about one of these other parts that made those who ended up there so dominant? Why didn't those from the original location, who had thousands of years 'head start' develop differently? Take skin colour out of the equation, or think in terms of blue, green, purple or whatever as skin colour can't be a factor. It just so happens that environmental factors altered the first milimetre of someone's dermis over time. So that isn't important. But what is? Soil? Climate? Tools? It's got me stumped for sure.
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Post by questa on Jul 9, 2016 12:43:36 GMT
All your suggestions are sound, OnlyMark, but the concept of people of colour being inferior goes back millennia. In the Judaic/Christian scriptures is the story of Noah getting drunk and naked.
Genesis 9:20-27 (KJV) 20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Ham's mother came from an area where the people had dark skin so the fair skinned races took this as meaning that dark skinned races were of inferior caste, even believing that they "had no souls". When an attitude like this lasts many centuries it becomes part of the culture, and that is what has to change.
Although the religions have debunked the story of Ham and Canaan, there is still the shadow of white superiority in many well-meaning people.
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