The Vietnamese banh-mi

[Deleted]

As the years have passed, memory of the time when the French claimed control over Vietnam has faded away and almost seems incredible to younger generations, but the French left one thing that has become an integral part of Vietnamese culture: the baguette. The Vietnamese call it banh-mi, a deformation of the French term pain de mie (soft white bread). The baguette was first introduced to French Indochina in the 19th century to feed the French troops stationed there. But even though baking is a noble profession, the French ex-pats were not there to do such a menial job, so the job was passed on to the local Chinese and Vietnamese. By 1910, street vendors were already selling baguettes in the street for people going to work, because the Vietnamese were already eating the bread themselves.

It did not take long for the Vietnamese to invent a local sandwich using meat, vegetables or fish along with a bit of grated carrot, cilantro and cucumber (etc.) and these sandwiches took on the name of banh-mi. These can now be found in Laos and Cambodia as well, and also in Bangkok. On Khao San Road, the main backpackers street of Bangkok, many of the buses set rendez-vous times at 5 or 6 a.m. just before dawn. Sellers of fresh warm baguettes and banh-mi swarm around the travellers and have great success.

The Asian baguette is shorter and fatter than the baguettes you get in France. One of them is the perfect size for a hearty sandwich, which probably explains how the format came about. In any case, the French were booted out of Indochina more than 60 years ago, but even if France completely disappears some day, the baguette will probably live on.

xotours.vn/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/banh-mi-sandwich.jpg

www.seevietnamdifferently.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Banh-Mi.jpg

urbanprovider.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Banh-Mi-1-600x450.jpeg

You can also buy excellent banh-mi in Paris now.

[lagatta]

Yes, also in Montréal. And in many other cities with a Vietnamese community.

Where is your favourite banh mi place? Quite a few near where I live, because other than being the old heart of the Italian community, and of the Syrian-Lebanese community, it was also a settlement point for Vietnamese, as well as some Cambodians and a few Laotians, and there is a knot of "Indochinese" businesses arount St-Denis and Jean-Talon streets. Also a Vietnamese Buddhist temple extremely close to my house, and a Cao Dai temple + a Vietnamese Catholic congregation a bit farther west, and east, respectively.

[Van]

The term isn't from French but entirely Chinese filtered through Vietnamese. Bánh mì combines 餅 and 麵 where the former is a generic term for bread/cake/pastry/snack and the latter means wheat.

[lagatta]

Van, it is entirely possible that it is a fusion of both origins - that is not unusual when coining words.

[questa]

Lots of shops in Adelaide as well. When I was in Vietnam in 1994 it was my staple breakfast, not with the meat and salad but spread with Laughing Cow cheese and the rich sweet strawberry jam from Dalat. Occasionally a bowl of rice porridge with beef shreds gave variety.
Lunch was often the meat banh-mi or whatever looked good at the little eateries where one sat on a tiny plastic stool to eat.
Dinner Pho...A soup which is delicate in flavour but fills you up, seafood that is swimming in a tank until you point to it.
Rice paper rolls of many fillings, and don't forget to order the banh-mi for breakfast.

[bixaorellana]

Thanks for that derivation, Van! Even in English people sometimes say "wheat bread", so interesting to know that the same term exists in other languages. Calling the whole sandwich after its bread reminds me of the muffaletta of New Orleans, which technically is the bread portion, but which now means specifically the sandwich made on that bread.

[kerouac2]

I would tend to partially contest Van's explanation since the baguette was introduced by the French and not the Chinese, and the French term for "white bread" is pain de mie. The original Chinese name did not at all refer to French style baguettes but to rice cakes. So the shift in what is meant by bánh mì is a normal evolution of the language.

As far as I'm concerned, a bánh mì sandwich can only be savoury. Eaten with butter and jam for breakfast, it is just a baguette.

[kerouac2]

McDonald's always knows which way the wind is blowing in each country.

pbs.twimg.com/media/CnfQO3IVMAA6zzq.jpg

[questa]

Yes, my Capitan, of course, my Capitan, but the bread under my cheese and jam was soft and crackling fresh from the ovens, warm without being soggy with the sweetest aroma that brings back the delight of the newness of being in a traveller's dream.

[kerouac2]

Indeed -- it was a baguette. You can use them to make bánh mì, too. Actually, I think that English speakers should go back to calling a baguette a French stick. Using all of that weird farang terminology has never made anybody more intelligent.

[lagatta]

What English-speakers have ever used that term?

The vegetables on those look all wrong, and why Kraft orange cheese?

[kerouac2]

Oh, you hear the term "French stick" relatively often in British and Australian series. I like it.

[questa]

Actually...those banh-mi in the McCafe look all wrong. They are the standard burger done up in a baguette to fool the homesick tourist.
My best guy used to split the bread and swipe some butter on, then bean sprouts, long green cucumber strips, carrot julienne, red and green capsicum strips, some finely shredded Chinese cabbage to give it crunch, then slow cooked pork, chicken or whatever. He asks if you want chilli, (No) squirts some sauce over the meat and wraps it.

That is banh-mi, not that McCafe thing, I have never seen that sliced cheese on one either.

[kerouac2]

Yes, I know that the McDonald's pictures are all wrong. In any case, it is highly unlikely that I would ever want a bahn-mi from McDonald's. They look more like Egg McMuffins anyway.

[questa]

Or Subway fodder.

[lagatta]

I live closer to banh mi places than to the closest McDo, so...

This really makes me want one right now, but it is still very cold this morning. Facilitating groups where there are a lot of Asians (both East and SE and South Asians gave me a new look at breakfast, which always involves rice and often savoury leftovers. I have some chicken stir-fry left over, and some soba noodles. Some phở would also be welcome...

[casimira]

We have a fairly decent Vietnamese restaurant in our neighborhood and of late have been ordering food from them for take out while my husband is ill.

Mostly Pho but, we have also imbibed in a couple of their banh-mi to accompany the soup.

There is a huge Vietnamese population here in NOLA and there are 2 or 3 bakeries that specialize in the proper bread.

I haven't seen the McDonald's offering of them but even if I did I wouldn't even be tempted when we have an authentic alternative so nearby.

[Van]

Oct 4, 2016 15:15:49 GMT kerouac2 said:

The Vietnamese call it banh-mi, a deformation of the French term pain de mie (soft white bread).

It’s not from French but a combo of two Chinese-derived terms being 餅 + 麵. Nouns generally come before the adjective in Vietnamese; word bánh is an alternate reading of the word bính and can mean anything from cake to bread, pastry and snack (usually eaten with your bare hands). Mì, on the other hand, was borrowed later on through Southern Chinese migrants and means wheat.

[Van]

Jan 12, 2019 17:42:01 GMT lagatta said:

Van, it is entirely possible that it is a fusion of both origins - that is not unusual when coining words.

This is very unlikely given that words and terms borrowed into Vietnamese from French that have ‘de’ in them preserve that consonant. The word bánh itself was already used to refer to other food items, most often eaten with bare hands; both bánh and mì and regular Vietnamese words with Chinese origin. The same is true for phở (which comes from 粉 and a double borrowing of bún; triple if you include the standard Sino-Vietnamese reading of phấn).

[Van]

Jan 13, 2019 4:56:55 GMT kerouac2 said:

I would tend to partially contest Van's explanation...

It’s generally agreed that the term has Sino-Vietnamese origins and linguists have essentially ruled out the Franco-Vietnamese one as a folk etymology. Just because the food item was introduced by the French does not mean the name has to have been taken from them too. There are plenty of ‘bánh’ food items and they are generally eaten with bare hands and come in all varieties. Bánh is just a generic term (derived from Chinese 餅) for all kinds of snacks, pastries, cakes and breads.

I think you’re mistaking something here. Both bánh and mì are regular Vietnamese words that have been in use far longer than the French had been in Vietnam. The term bánh mì just means bread in general and is not specific to the Vietnamese roll. Ergo, it’s not true at all to say that bánh mì can only be savoury. Heck, some Vietnamese dip their bread into coffee.

Bánh mì is not a Chinese term, it’s a Vietnamese one that happens to use Chinese-derived words/morphemes. The word 麵 has a Standard Sino-Vietnamese reading of miến which in modern Vietnamese is a specific type of glass noodles. The word was much later on borrowed via Southern Chinese migrants as mì to mean wheat or noodles.

People also mistakenly believe that phở is taken from pot-au-feu which makes even less sense given its similarities with the Cantonese beef noodle soup called 牛肉粉 whereby the final word 粉 is a triple borrowing (first as Standard Sino-Vietnamese phấn; then as bún meaning rice vermicelli and then as phở). The Cantonese tone for 粉 matches up with the Vietnamese quite well and another indication as to why pot-au-feu is unlikely to be the etymon is that no French loanword in Vietnamese has the ? (Hỏi) tone.

[Van]

Jan 13, 2019 4:56:55 GMT kerouac2 said:

(...)

Another counter-point is how it was the French that introduced televisions to Vietnam but one of the most common terms for it is ti-vi which was borrowed from English.

[kerouac2]

I've never heard anybody in France mistake phở for a corruption of pot-au-feu. For one thing, the French (in France) mispronounce it as pho (as in photo) and almost nobody knows to pronouce it as feu.

Anyway, many thanks for your etymological explanation. There seem to be millions of words and names all over the world that are still a source of debate.

[van]

Numerous websites and videos still mention either of those folk etymologies and it's not limited to France but extends to anglophones and even some Vietnamese.