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Post by lagatta on Dec 19, 2016 22:04:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 22:35:52 GMT
Naturally, it's the only subject on the various European news channels. 9 dead and 50 injured.
I think the kind of security that Strasbourg was using when I was there will almost certainly be generalised in lots of places in the future.
Today's assassination of the Russian ambassador in Ankara would have been the top news in tomorrow's newspapers, but it will probably get short shrift now.
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Post by rikita on Dec 19, 2016 23:47:10 GMT
just read about it a little while ago ...
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Post by mich64 on Dec 19, 2016 23:53:43 GMT
Our National News programs are reporting this as well. So tragic and sad for those attending the Christmas Market. For those injured and for those who died and now for their families left to grieve.
Reporters are saying that Germany and France were on high alert as they had received intelligence information that these type of markets could be targeted more so this year and to expect attacks such as this. The simplest means of causing deaths is the instruction, no longer are guns or bombs necessary. Very worrisome.
When I turned on the News they were showing the actual moment of when the Russian Ambassador to Turkey was shot in the back, I was stunned and upset that they actually showed his last moments, I was unprepared. It was disturbing to realize I watched a person being assassinated.
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Post by rikita on Dec 19, 2016 23:56:28 GMT
we were planning to visit a christmas market on friday. i feel a bit weird about that now, though i suppose you shouldn't let yourself be scared away from things ...
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 20, 2016 0:51:11 GMT
When I turned on the News they were showing the actual moment of when the Russian Ambassador to Turkey was shot in the back, I was stunned and upset that they actually showed his last moments, I was unprepared. It was disturbing to realize I watched a person being assassinated. I did not turn on the computer this morning, so only learned about that assassination @1 pm. Reading what you wrote, Mich, made me glad I don't have a tv and can try to control some of what I see on my own computer. 46 minutes ago, as I write this, Germany’s interior minister, Thomas de Maizière, has said he is not yet ready to call the incident at Breitscheidplatz an “attack” but added that there are indications that it was intentional. He told ARD television: I don’t want to use the word ‘attack’ yet at the moment, although a lot speaks for it. There is a psychological effect in the whole country of the choice of words here, and we want to be very, very cautious and operate close to the actual investigation results, not with speculation. www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/19/berlin-truck-crash-christmas-market-liveIn contrast, that moron, that thing the US is preparing to install in the highest office in the land fanned the flames with hate rhetoric. I won't dignify it by quoting it here, but it's the second item after Germany's Interior Minister's statement quoted above.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 20, 2016 3:02:36 GMT
Especially since it is exactly the outcome violent extremists seek.
I deliberately made my post title as plain and factual as possible.
And I have no desire to witness the Russian ambassador being murdered.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 4:52:57 GMT
French TV did not show the assassination of the ambassador, just the assassin yelling at the other people right after he had accomplished his task.
As for the incident in Berlin, it's looking like the driver was Polish, so it will be interesting to see if the ranters continue to try to put an Islamic spin on the event.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 6:13:56 GMT
Well, it has now surfaced that the driver was Pakistani or Afghan. It is likely that the dead passenger was the normal truck driver who got hijacked.
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Post by onlyMark on Dec 20, 2016 6:59:18 GMT
The ultimate aim of IS/ISIL/Daesh is to have an Islamic world. To have no 'unbelievers'. I wonder if they have ever thought that a more effective way for this to happen is, rather than killing all the unbelievers, which tends to put the back up of the others who dig their heels in and then start bombing you, is to have a complete change of tactic and... be nice. Use the carrot instead of the stick to show how good it would be to be an Islamic Fundamentalist.
Nah, that wouldn't work. For a start that phrase contains the word 'mental', which they all are. So that would put people off for a start.
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Post by rikita on Dec 20, 2016 8:12:48 GMT
an islamic world might be their ultimate goal, but their more immediate goal is discord and fear and hatred, i suppose, and i suppose they want more muslims to join them - and my guess is they hope to reach that by sowing discord, like if they do attacks like this and that leads to more distrust and discrimination of all muslims who might then end up saying that if they are suspected to be extremist anyway, then they might as well become one ...
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Post by lagatta on Dec 20, 2016 10:45:12 GMT
That is their precise strategy. They also have more than a bit of the nihilist "hater" about them - a lot of them could have just as well been in a biker gang, or neo-Nazis if they were of "Aryan" complexion.
Daesh have killed far more Muslims than people of any other confession (or none). Even in Nice, the murdered reflected the local population, thus many Maghrebi names, as well as other Mediterraneans (many Italian or Corsican names) as much as "standard issue" French, whatever that is.
Beyond the horror of seeing normal Berliners at a market getting killed or wounded, this will probably be a boost to the extreme right in Germany... Last thing we need in the world today.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 11:42:07 GMT
Some of the stomach-churning xenophobia that I have been reading on Twitter is beyond belief.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 12:26:28 GMT
Back to Square One. The German police have now announced that the suspect who was arrested is not the killer. That person is still on the loose.
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Post by rikita on Dec 20, 2016 13:25:07 GMT
yes, i worry about that too, that the right will use this to their advantage - which is basically playing into the hands of those that want more hatred and divide ...
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Post by lagatta on Dec 20, 2016 14:08:24 GMT
Indeed, the "white European" far right, and Daesh, which is also far-right, basically want the same thing...
I also want to give a big hug to rikita, little A. and Mr rikito. Yes, I know that Berlin is a huge city, but I remember how a friend of mine in Brooklyn felt back in "9-11", and later people I know in London, Paris, Madrid... and also Tunis. (there are lots of stricken towns and cities where I don't know anyone, despite working in international solidarity stuff).
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Post by onlyMark on Dec 22, 2016 14:57:14 GMT
Originally I was pondering about how come it just so happened that the ID documents of the alleged offender were found under the seat in the truck cab. It does ring my "suspicious" bell as to how apparently careless the offender was. Plus, unless it was intentional placed or a habit, why the offender was carrying them around with him. I know that if I was going to do something like this, having my ID with me just wouldn't happen, especially as he is/was well known to the authorities. It is required in Germany that you carry some form of ID around with you (I'm almost sure of that). When I lived there the only proper ID I had was my passport and I always left it at home rather than risk losing it somewhere. I now see the conspiracy theorists have picked up on the ID in the cab but not found until a day later thing.
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Post by mossie on Dec 22, 2016 15:11:41 GMT
A theory seems to be that he wanted to be shot by the police, or otherwise killed in the carnage, in order to become a martyr. I note our media are making hay with the German lack of security, but I just wonder how many asylum seekers who have been refused entry here, but are tamely allowed to roam freely about the country. There are also the home grown little darlings who have bravely gone to join Daesh, and then discovered that life out there is not a bed of roses and virgins, and have crept back home with murder on their minds. We are far too lax in allowing these things to happen, once asylum has been refused they should be hustled out or incarcerated. Those who return should not be allowed back in and their British passports withdrawn.
Until we get as ruthless as Daesh we cannot win.
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Post by rikita on Dec 22, 2016 23:43:57 GMT
if we get as ruthless as daesh, the mindset of daesh has won.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 23:54:47 GMT
In the meantime, I am seeing the same criticism of the German police as we saw of the Belgian police after the attacks there and the French police before that. I really do not understand how people can think that the police can do (and prevent) "everything" when there is no way that it is possible. Obviously, there are always some mistakes which are so easy to point out, but people should understand that the police and other services are only as good as the taxes we are willing to pay and even if you doubled or even quintupled that amount, shitty things will always happen.
The true test of service quality will be seen in how rapidly the perpetrator is caught, if ever. Frankly, I was quite impressed at how quickly the French police found the remaining people on the run involved even though I have doubts about whether or not they needed to be slaughtered in Saint Denis, and I only hope that the German police will be as efficient.
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Post by rikita on Dec 22, 2016 23:55:22 GMT
anyway, the theories i read were - he had to have his papers with him as he came from a different region and without his papers for such a long journey the risk of getting problems would have been too high - though i suppose he stayed the night somewhere, so it doesn't explain why he had the papers on him at that moment. some think they fell under the seat while he fought the polish truck driver, or that the truck driver somehow got them to fall there ... while others think that he wanted to become known - because he either wanted to get killed, or when he fled, did so only to do more attacks until he gets killed, and he wanted to be sure it is known what kind of attack this was, to ensure there is more tension and discord.
as for not getting deported - they couldn't deport him, as he has no papers from home (the papers they found were the papers referring to his status in germany) and thus had no proof he was from tunisia. so, even knowing he was from there, tunisia at first claimed he wasn't from there, so how will you deport someone in that case? i think the much bigger problem than him not being deported (and i know people who did not get deported after losing their status, in some cases they went into hiding - because they are afraid they might not survive at home, because they have nothing and no one there anymore, so just saying they have to be "hustled out" is saying they have to go and die) is that it was known he was dangerous, he was under surveillance for trying to get weapons and similar things, and then they lost track of him. his papers, that were needed for deportation, arrived two days after the attack.
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Post by onlyMark on Dec 23, 2016 11:15:34 GMT
You mentioned this a short while ago Rikita and that's where I initially knew the info from, but he was shot dead in Milan.
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Post by amboseli on Dec 23, 2016 11:19:45 GMT
... if HE was the perpetrator. They are still not sure about that. He's always just a suspect. The media are very fast about giving such information ... cfr. the Afghan man that was arrested right after the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 11:21:43 GMT
I hope they got it right this time. The German government has not even reacted yet because they have not yet received official notification from Italy.
If it's really over, I am glad that it ended before Christmas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 14:18:40 GMT
... if HE was the perpetrator. They are still not sure about that. He's always just a suspect. The media are very fast about giving such information ... cfr. the Afghan man that was arrested right after the facts. The whole thing has seemed "fishy" to me from the get go. Some of it sloppy police work, the media and all the confusion surrounding his ethnicity, being able to travel freely to France, then to Italy and goodness knows what else. And, this is just the information they are giving us. (I've been married to a conspiracy theorist for 31 years and a lot of skepticism has rubbed off on me). NPR leading headline just now, "the terrorist attack in Berlin has come to an end..."
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Post by lagatta on Dec 23, 2016 14:59:16 GMT
I know that often the police have no alternative, but it would be far preferable to have these terrorist attack suspects caught alive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 15:29:34 GMT
I know that often the police have no alternative, but it would be far preferable to have these terrorist attack suspects caught alive. Which adds to confusion and authenticity if this indeed the right guy. How convenient that the main suspect is dead.
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Post by onlyMark on Dec 23, 2016 15:42:52 GMT
His fingerprints were found in the cab of the truck. Hell of a conspiracy if it wasn't him then.
There is also no blanket communication between police forces of different countries in Europe to 'shoot on sight'. The ordinary policeman on the street - and that what these were in Italy - would never get such an instruction. If the twat hadn't shot at a policeman he wouldn't be dead. There is no conspiracy wide enough to encompass every single policeman in Europe.
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Post by onlyMark on Dec 23, 2016 15:53:52 GMT
Also - with the first mistaken offender - I would expect all they had to go on in the first few minutes/hour was a description. Especially because of the lack of CCTV evidence at the scene. Whoever may complain that 'they got the wrong guy', stop and think for a minute what the uproar would be if he had been, but they'd let him go. Those complaining would be even more vociferous in their condemnation of the police. That is what happened with the Paris attacks. I am surprised only the one person was arrested. I would have expected half a dozen who looked similar would have been apprehended. The police should be commended for their restraint and caution.
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Post by amboseli on Dec 23, 2016 17:23:40 GMT
Whoever may complain that 'they got the wrong guy', stop and think for a minute what the uproar would be if he had been, but they'd let him go. You're right. But they didn't have to disclose the guy's name until they were 200% sure. Especially since he is a refugee ... and refugees is a tricky subject these days in Europe.
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