Frugal living

[Deleted]

It was suggested recently that a new thread be started about this subject after there was an uproar from certain members who thought they were being attacked for having limited financial resources. Although this was not at all the case, these people felt they had been insulted by someone (me) and retreated into silence (Women often do this, and I am not at all saying this to instigate more anger/resentment, but it is something that I have observed constantly in my life to my enormous regret. I just wish that people would speak out rather than shut up, even more so on International Women's Day.).

Anyway, there are plenty of people who need to be very careful about their expenses, and there are also a lot of us who want to be careful even if we are in a relatively stable financial situation.

I am considered to be a complete cheapskate. I am not proud of it, but I do not deny it, even if it is not entirely true. I was brought up by parents of very limited means, and I was happy to annoy them at an adult age from time to time by treating them to things on which they would never have spent money themselves. A safari in Kenya. A trip to Hong Kong. Christmas in Marrakech... I refrain from spending unnecessary money every day, and yet for certain things I can use my payment cards until they are about to melt.

Basically, I hate to spend much money on food (groceries or restaurants) and I resist as long as possible before replacing appliances, furniture or even pots and pans, even when it is obvious that they have done their time.

I suppose that I am more or less a typical "bobo" (bohemian bourgeois), which is the term used here to describe people who voluntarily live beneath their means while splurging on 'ridiculous' things from time to time.

The other day I bought yet another travel laptop because I hated the previous one (a Samsung Chrome book) that I bought a couple of years ago. (If anybody wants a Chrome book, hardly ever used, please do not hesitate to contact me.). What sold me on it is the fact that it weighs only 600 grammes. Was it too expensive? Yes, but it was on sale, 100€ less than the usual price. And I justify such purchases from the fact that I am so careful with other expenses. I do not have the slightest idea if this is correct or not. Anyway, I bought it because I am leaving on another trip soon. Should I even be taking this trip? Who knows?

I am pretty sure that I will always be a cheapskate until some medical authority tells me that I will die soon. Then I might start splurging a bit without thinking, but not before.

One thing that has always bothered me is how different the concept of "frugal" is to various people. I was regularly outraged a few years ago when someone had a regular column in the New York Times called "The Frugal Traveler." It always started out sounding like the guy was really trying to save money, and then he would recommend restaurants that "only" cost $30 or $50. My own concept of frugal is not at all that.

So, if any of you out there are living frugally, what are your own takes and advice on the subject?

[whatagain]

I fully agree that frugality is influenced by your upraising.
I also agree that some people have to be frugal.
And there is a mysterious part.
My brother has a lot of problems to depart with his money. For instance I am the one calling him because he chose a cheap operator and has to pay a lot if he calls. Hence he uses his phone like a receiver... And he would call me than hang up, and I have to understand I must call him back.

This being said, I am also a bobo and I hate to spend money for nothing. Something that drove me crazy recently was that my daughter closed her window in a way that let some air go through. Then she upped the heater to compensate... Or she lets the lights burning.

However one is not a total 'pingre' or stingy when he can spend a fortune on a trip... Like you Kerouac, I am ok to spend a lot of dosh buying 5 tickets to Argentinia and it made me feel good. My banker likes it too.

I always surprise my colleagues and friends with my expenses. My boss once told me that I would spend more on a meal than for a hotel. I usually spend 100 € max 125 € a night, refuse the breakfast that I find overpriced and will eat diffultly under 50 €. In Paris. I keep old clothes whilst my wife will buy nice one. However I came last december to her favorite store, bought 5 jeans, didn't look at the price and had to slick it when I saw the price. Comment of my wife was 'ah, Armani, you have never heard of ?'.

So I guess we all save on some items and let ourselves loose on others.

The only thing that changed with myself is that I'm still angry wasting money (128 € for a speedcamera recently in Germany) but I care less and less to overpay when I'm with friends who have less money. Like I will usually pay for the wine - I love wine and I don't want to impose a more expensive one that my friends would chose at dinner for example.
My wife is worse. She invites some of our friends for free in southern France (quite normal when we are there too) and even refuses that they pay their share for shopping. We stopped at paying for the train for one specific friend but we may do it next year. She is a great friend and it has been too long she took a holiday. And heck, train is under 100 € roundtrip if we can be smart.

In summary, I don't think I live frugally (anymore) but pay attention to where and how I spend my money.
But telling your wife 'oh, give me your credit card, mine doesn't work anymore to pay 4000 € for the tickets' is no problem.

So. Yesterday I was frugal and paid 18 € for sushis, what about tonight ?
Sleeping on Saint Michel boulevard btw... probably a tourist trap. 116,39 € - ok, under 125 €.

[bjd]

Until reading this, I never thought of myself as living frugally. But then again, I don't like to spend money unnecessarily. I guess I'm another in the "bobo" group. I won't go to really fancy restaurants or spend a huge amount for clothes, although I will always buy good quality shoes and sometimes just buy something I don't need because it's nice.

When I go on holiday, I don't stay in fancy places but prefer to stay somewhere quite cheap. But I can go on holiday and have done so often. I guess I just think it's reasonable to spend on important things, like plane tickets, and pay less for things that are just not that important to me, like fancy hotels.

As for day-to-day living, I watch what I spend for food, buy things when they are on special but still will not deprive myself of good things. But I wouldn't shop at Fauchon or Hédiard (fancy food shops in Paris) simply because I think they are a rip-off and you are paying for the label on the jar.

[lagatta]

And there are plenty of other places in Paris one can find very good food items, even for gifts for friends in other countries.

I've always been very much of the bobo type, but factors beyond my control left me with a much smaller freelance income than say 20 years before; I do think things are looking up (for one thing Harper is no longer PM; I didn't vote for Trudeau either but he is not as intent on DELIBERATE cuts to funding for anything related to the arts, international cooperation or scientific research). I never went to restaurants often because I was always a good cook, so prepared meals and friends would bring wine (which is relatively expensive here, though people in Québec love un repas bien arrosé). But now I almost never can, and do miss that. On the other hand, I am trying to get rid of things and pare down on household items (yep, including the infamous TV) simply because it will make my little flat less cluttered and more pleasant. Our library system has much improved with interbranch lending between Montréal librairies and la Bibliothèque nationale du Québec, so I try to borrow books instead of buying them whenever possible. I think I have 8 bookcases, from very large to small.

Odd, I don't find the item mentioned in the Frugal Traveler column in the NYT very high for a decent meal in NYC; if not, one is really eating in snack bars, non? Not that I could pay that nowadays. I do try to make sure I eat nutritious and tasty food, but check like mad for the cheapest good shops and the best bargains.

And just to raise hackles about "not having" certain things as virtue signalling, I'm very glad to live a few minutes from a métro station and close to several bus lines, so I don't need a car.  

[mich64]

I used to be more frugal than I am now. Events happen in life to us all and mine made me realize that I should do things and enjoy things now. That being stated, I still do have guilty feelings when I finally decide yes on some things I will spend our money on.

We began saving for retirement, I think, relatively young and would forgo the latest trends that most of our friends would purchase and thought by being frugal while young would help us enjoy our retirement someday. I remember putting things back on the shelf or rack many times. We now try to balance enjoying life while saving for emergencies and retirement.

I watch our day-to-day spending so that I can save for our holidays and things I want for our home.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2017 20:26:48 GMT lagatta said:

I'm very glad to live a few minutes from a métro station and close to several bus lines, so I don't need a car. 

I am quite happy as well that I have never owned an automobile, even though I have had a licence since the first moment that I could get one. When my parents left France in 1981, they would have been happy to give me their Peugeot 504 automatic, which was a very prestigious car at the time, since it was the preferred vehicle of taxi drivers. I even actually possessed a parking space in my building at the time, which is a very rare commodity in Paris, but I still declined their generous offer. I will admit that the principal reason was not at all that I did not want a car but because I know absolutely nothing about motor vehicles and did not want the responsibility of the upkeep, not to mention being afraid that I would be swindled by mechanics.

In recent years, I have had a tinge of desire for simple small cars that can be leased for only about 100€ a month but I have remained reasonable since I have absolutely no need for a car. I continue to rent a car from time to time, which I consider to be a luxury, but at least after paying for use for a few days, I do not have to worry about the thing anymore.

[whatagain]

Buy yourself a Twizzy !

[Deleted]

I have to laugh whenever I see one. They look so totally useless!

i2.wp.com/www.automobile-propre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/072.jpg

[Deleted]

I think for many people it's a matter of priorities. For some, spending money on travel versus their wardrobe is their choice and priority.


(Surely, (without being snarky) you can afford a new washing machine Kerouac however, a new laptop and travelling is your choice and priority).

[Deleted]

Ha ha, it's not at all the matter of the cost of a washing machine. It is the fact that I have to completely empty the kitchen to make space to get the old machine out and the new one in. The washing machine was the first thing I bought when I moved in, and there was nothing in the kitchen then.

[lagatta]

Yes, Parisian kitchens have ... challenges.

I see NO advantage of that carlike object over a bicycle or a bakfiets, with electric assist if one lives in a very hilly place or has mobility limitations or heart problems. Is Autolib up and running in Paris now? Since our carshare service really got underway, I know several people who have given up owning a car in favour of using a carshare car when they need to carry stuff or travel to destinations ill-served by public transport.

I have several boxes of stuff to get rid of; much will be taken to charity shops, though there are certain things I can simply set out on the street and people will take them. For one thing, I have too many chairs, as a neighbour gave me four EXTREMELY solid oak chairs that were originally from the motherhouse of Congrégation Notre-Dame, if I recall.

[bjd]

That putting stuff on the street struck me as extremely good in Montreal or Ottawa (the only places I saw it, although I'm sure it happens elsewhere). My son and daughter-in-law got lots of stuff for their first apartment in Ottawa off the street, especially when students were leaving for the summer. They even found 4 white cushions carefully placed in a plastic bag. And when my son left Montreal, what he didn't manage to sell on Kijiji, he left on the street and shortly afterwards spotted a woman putting it all into the back of a pick-up truck.

There is indeed a car share program in Paris, and elsewhere. Even here in my suburb of Toulouse, there are two places with a couple of cars available.

French kitchens in general are smaller than N American ones, but our appliances are much smaller and we probably have fewer gadgets.

[chexbres]

I was raised by parents who were very tight-fisted. My mother had to feed 5 children, her husband and herself - including a couple of bottles of Bourbon - on only 50 USD per week, back in the early 1960's. We always wore hand-me-downs, and I remember never owning more than 2 pairs of shoes until I was in my mid-40's.

My father was much worse than kerouac, but had many "hidden expenses", which kept him happy while my mother was miserable. He always talked about how much money he had in the bank, but when he died, he had successfully spent every penny of it on himself.

I've been dirt-poor, moderately well-off, and a millionaire by virtue of my ex-husband for a few years. None of these periods lasted very long. I was conditioned to do with much less than other people had, but my ex-husband always thought that money grew on trees. Until one day...it didn't.

Now that I don't have to keep to his standards, and can suit myself, it makes me happy to save money in a piggy bank for one or two vacations. They are in the "splurge" category, because I can pay for them without guilt, thanks to my savings. It's fun to see how much I can come up with in a year's time, with just 1 and 2 euro coins...not so much fun for my banker who has to count it all!

I don't obsess over grocery prices too much. If something isn't what I want, but is too cheap to not consider buying, I won't purchase it. I do pay attention to things like meat and fish, which are outrageous, so I don't eat much of them. If I want a nice bottle of wine or a fine Armagnac, I'll buy it and appreciate it.

The main problem I have is accumulating paper products - probably a holdover from my restaurant days  

I like going out to a few favorite restaurants with friends where I know the food is good, and normally won't go over 50 EU, wine included - though most of the time I will spend around 20 EU by myself. I would rather eat good food that's served by someone else and enjoy good conversation with friends than stay home, cook and clean up.

WhatAgain is a very generous dining companion, but he doesn't always have to be "the wine martyr"   

There are times when friends suggest restaurants where I know that I could not swallow even one bite, for one reason or another. I make my excuses, and they go on and have a fine time without me.
I'm sure they're on to me... 

kerouac might be thinking about plans for re-designing his kitchen, so is enjoying reading while he watches his laundry and talking with the people who hang around the laundromat. I doubt he would be doing this if it became too expensive.

[mich64]

We have often put items at the road that we know will still be of good use to someone and every time they are gone by mid day. There are still quite a few cottages out here so people make use out of things in unusual ways. Right now we have a part of my pantry that we removed intact from our kitchen waiting for pick up this spring by our friends who will use it in their cottage for clothes and linens.

[Deleted]

Putting stuff out on the street for others is a tradition in Paris as well. However, there was an incredible case recently in which a woman who left a book on a bench for anyone to take received a 35 euro fine for littering.

The fine was cancelled, but still...!

[whatagain]

I write in book I leave 'this is a traveling book'.

I have 3 reasons for doing this :
the altruistic one is that it ùay give pleasure to somebody else
the egotistical one is that I don't have to carry it in my backpack anymore
the practical one is that I can't discard books so they accumulate at home.

[lagatta]

Since my flat overall is NOT very large, I do wish I could more easily find European-sized appliances. There are more here now, but they are expensive as they are a niche market for condos. Lots of tenants in small flats would like them too, but they are too costly. I was happy to find a smallish fridge. I don't have a full-sized stove now, because mine died and I don't want to waste so much space on something designed for feeding a family and cooking large turkeys!

I've certainly seen large kitchens in the countryside in France.

I'm still trying to get rid of various things. An antique iron and brass bed, which needed repair, was picked up within minutes of me putting it out (I have an Ikea daybed now that is of a similar style, and easy to move and clean underneath). I bought that second-hand too. In general I don't like Ikea paperboard furniture, but some of their metal items are reasonably solid...

[Deleted]

In my grandparents' village (as well as all of the villages of the region), the kitchen was always the "family room" where you spend most of the day. Only the younger generations in new houses have a living room that is used as such (big screen TV with those video game things), but the houses are still built with roomy kitchens.

[lagatta]

That is why most kitchens in Québec, even in small flats, are relatively larger in proportion to the entire surface area of the dwelling compared to the ones in Paris. People socialised in the kitchen, where there was a large stove.

If there was a parlour, it was tiny, and used for things like the priest's visits, when he'd admonish couples who hadn't produced progeny often enough...

I don't have a living room, as it is my home office.

[lagatta]

We all have to shop, and I don't mean only groceries. I kept looking for a warm winter coat in friperies, but nothing suitable, so I picked up a warm coat at deep discount at a local chain. But how to determine what we need when even the poorest among us have unworn garments in our closets?

[kerouac2]

We are entering the final week of the winter sales, and I finally gave in yesterday. I was not even shopping but a '70% off' sign sucked me into the store I was passing and I bought a shirt.

[bjd]

Two weeks ago I was on my way to the bus station and I stopped into a store where I usually check things out. I bought a dress, which is for summer, which I don't need, but since I have a hard time finding clothes I like, that fit and at a price I am willing to pay, that I didn't resist. Now I have to wait for spring.

Speaking of getting rid of things -- we are going to move, we have sold our house, so are spending our time sorting, moving some things, deciding what to do with others and getting rid of stuff accumulated over 30 years in the same place. I tend to go to the dump or the charity shop, my husband has been selling stuff online. He even managed to sell 10 years of National Geographic magazines, in English! For 10€, just as I was about to start recycling them. I took a bunch of stuff to Emmaus (a kind of Goodwill place), gave a friend some vases and bowls for a charity yard sale run by a friend of hers, but we still have so many books! Old dictionaries! Books in various languages!

[kerouac2]

The husband of one of my colleagues became addicted to Ebay when her aunt died and then her mother was put in a nursing home. He started putting stuff on the market and made a bundle. But it was a very bourgeois family with lots of nice stuff, so it was very easy to sell apparently. Some of the small items went for hundreds of euros.

[bjd]

I'm talking about Le Bon Coin here. Nothing goes if it isn't cheap.

[lagatta]

I bought the coat at 70% off + 20% off the 70&. I had looked at it, and others, at full price, so it wasn't a fake sale. It is very plain, mid-thigh, fake down, but very warm. I have to buy catfood, so am glad to have it. It is extremely cold here, and worse in places farther south that are ill-equipped for it.

[kerouac2]

In the fancy shopping mall that has been in decline in Aubervilliers since it opened about 2 years before the neighbourhood was upgraded, there has been quite a bit of empty retail space, a Dutch junk store chain has opened -- Action. It makes Hema look like Louis Vuitton in comparison. I see from its website that it already has 1333 stores across Europe. What struck me at this one, besides the fact that 80% of the cashiers were veiled and about 60% of the customers (not a problem but quite unusual in France) were the weird prices and the absolute rock bottom quality of most of the stuff, as though it were all assembled by children in an undeveloped African village. There were things like miniature chests of drawers with three real drawers and a little cupboard that opens for... 2.49€. On first inspection, it seemed to be built out of balsa wood, but closer inspection revealed that it was apparently made of recycled plastic, as though they had boiled down Coke bottles in a kitchen. I looked at some items to see where they were made, but it was not indicated, just that it was imported from NL. I don't think this is even legal. Other things were priced 0.38, 0.71 or 1.12, for example. When I think that the Dutch and Finns have eliminated the 1 and 2 eurocent coins, they can continue to live a long life in this store. I actually bought something even though it started as a brief preliminary scouting visit. But I know how if you see something in a store like this, it is unlikely that you will ever see it again even 3 days later. The customers were absolutely going wild in all of the aisles, and this was a pretty big store. So I bought a hard plastic organiser box with 12 little drawers, absolutely perfect for storing foreign coins and other such things. It was wrapped in plastic and definitely marked "made in China" which made the quality about 5 times better than most of what was being sold. Oh, but I had to fork over major money for it -- this treasure set me back 3.29 euros. I'll take a photo of it one of these days.

[amboseli]

Action is in Belgium, too. They sell mostly junk.
There's another one, Flying Tiger Copenhagen, that I like a lot. They have funny design gadgets at prices comparable to those of Action. Do you have one in Paris?

[lagatta]

That is a higher quota of hijabis than I've ever seen in France, except at a Mosque or religious event. And I've been in several highly Maghrebi or West African areas.

Yes, Action is dreadful. Once I bought reading glasses there for 50 € cents.

[kerouac2]

Jan 31, 2019 18:04:07 GMT lagatta said:

That is a higher quota of hijabis than I've ever seen in France, except at a Mosque or religious event. And I've been in several highly Maghrebi or West African areas.

That's why I was struck, particularly since Aubervilliers is the second Chinese city of France after Paris, but the only Chinese shoppers that I saw were in Carrefour. Nevertheless, the Millenaire shopping mall draws in large numbers of Maghrebis, particularly those visiting from North Africa rather than living in France (their families probably direct them to shop there). I have witnessed quite a few distressing scenes in Carrefour with people loading their carts with things to take back home -- 10 bottles of shampoo, 10 jars of face cream, etc. -- and finding that they don't have enough cash to pay for it all (they don't have credit cards). They ask the cashier to take back 2 of these or 5 of those until the total matches the amount of money that they have. I find it very upsetting, both for their personal humiliation and also for the calculations they will have to do back home for who gets what. I just hope that Action will help them to afford more stuff, even if it is shitty.

[lagatta]

Yes, but shitty personal care items can be useless (to be honest, so are many of the high-end ones) or downright dangerous. Although it is far from upscale, I've usually been quite happy with HEMA products. They had shampoo and conditioner for curly-kinky hair, making lagatta a very happy pussycat.

By the way, so far my coat has earned its keep. Livia was out of cat food, and vet says she needs "dental" catfood, so I did make my way to the nearby Jean-Talon Market, usually a most pleasant short walk (less than 1km) in winter and a zip by cycle in other seasons, but the very uneven ice and snow hurt my joints... But I really wasn't cold, except on the bit of flesh that had to be exposed so I could see and breathe.

Return supper will be described briefly under the appropriate topic.