Age of sexual consent

[kerouac2]

Related to the current subject of sexual abuse by people in power (or not) but nevertheless somewhat different, France is currently embroiled in a debate about the age of consent for sexual relations. This is after a man was recently acquitted of forcible rape in a case involving an 11 year old girl.  It remains illegal in France for an adult to have sexual relations with someone under the age of 15, but it leaves a bit of ambiguity in the area of forcible rape vs. what Americans know as statutory rape.  France has never set an age of consent.  Minors under the age of 15 can have sex with each other, just not with adults.  It's kind of screwed up.

However, some other European countries have done so.  The age is 14 in Portugal, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Austria.  It is age 18 in Malta, Turkey and the Vatican (!).  England and Switzerland say that any penetration of someone under the age of 16 is rape.  Denmark has set the age at 15.  Spain and the United States (yes, I know it is a non European country) have set the age at 12.

Experts in France are leaning toward setting the age at 13 while parliament always prefers to err on the side of caution and is thinking about 15.

In the case of the 11 year old girl, the "victim" was totally willing and up until now, each judge has had to make a decision on a case by case basis.  It is still a bit disturbing.

All of us have seen huge changes in sexual mores during our lives and also how much more young people have matured than the condition most of us experienced at those ages.  So obviously the cursor needs to be moved, but by how much?  I'm not even sure that France should set a specific age because everybody is different.  Then again, when somebody is not ready for sex at age 20, it is probably due more to a psychological disorder rather than slow maturity.  After all, even the mentally disabled want sex as soon as their hormones kick in.

It would be great if we could just rely on common sense based on the personal development of each young person, but obviously society feels the need to set rules.

For some reason, I am reminded of a standard daily television announcement in my youth.  "Parents, it's 10 p.m.  Do you know where your children are?"

[cheerypeabrain]

I don't think that the fact that the 11 year old was willing should even be a thing. 11 years old is too young emotionally to deal with adult issues never mind an unwanted pregnancy, even if the adult was only 18 I think that it's still out of order. I am probably way out of touch but I think that 16 is soon enough, with a little leeway for youngsters who perhaps jump the gun (where both are of similar age).

[bixaorellana]

I was wondering how to phrase my thoughts on this, but Cheery has said it perfectly.

11-year-olds are often willing to do things that would horrify responsible adults -- playing with guns, mishandling fireworks, forgetting to feed pets, opening the door to strangers ....... I think I've made my point.

Any "adult", i.e. someone 16 and older, who'd have sex with an 11-year-old is a criminal.

[Deleted]

What Cheery and Bixa said.

(I'm still trying to wrap my head around 12 being the age of sexual consent in the US!!!!!!!. Something I was acutely not aware of and am really shocked)

(I remember that TV announcement too Kerouac)

Edited to add: I ran this by my husband and he tells me that in the United States each state decides
what the age of sexual consent is).

[kerouac2]

Yes, I was pretty sure that for the purpose of sensationalism, the person who wrote the article chose the state with the lowest age.

Wikipedia says it is not 12 years old anywhere anymore in the US. In 1880, it was 7 in Delaware and 10 to 12 in most of the other states. Then in the 20th century it was changed to 16 to 18 in most places.

However, there is a U.S. federal law that sort of says age 12, just in case any state tried to make it lower than that.

For the purposes of age of consent, the only provision applicable is {Chapter 109A, 18 U.S.C. 2243(a)}. 2243(a) refers to situations where such younger person is under the age of 16 years, has attained 12 years of age, and the older person is more than 4 years older than the 12-to-15-year-old (persons under 12 are handled under 18 U.S.C. 2241(c) under aggravated sexual abuse). So, the age is 12 years if one is within 4 years of the 12-to-15-year-old's age, 16 under all other circumstances.

[kerouac2]

Nov 13, 2017 12:56:29 GMT cheerypeabrain said:

I don't think that the fact that the 11 year old was willing should even be a thing. 11 years old is too young emotionally to deal with adult issues never mind an unwanted pregnancy, even if the adult was only 18 I think that it's still out of order. I am probably way out of touch but I think that 16 is soon enough, with a little leeway for youngsters who perhaps jump the gun (where both are of similar age).

Well, the adult still risks conviction, but not of rape.

Here is the newspaper version of the event:  It took place in 2009.  A 22 year old stranger met the 11 year old girl in front of a building where she was on holiday.  They had sex in a park.  The only reason anybody ever found out about this is because the girl got pregnant.  The man said that she flirted with him and lied about her age (since she was capable of getting pregnant at age 11, she was probably one of those girls that all of the other girls were jealous of in school).  She had the baby and it was given up for adoption (not relevant).  Anyway, the court determined that no element of rape took place:  no constraint, threats, violence or surprise.  The only thing the guy could have been convicted of was "moral constraint" based on the age difference with the adult exerting authority over the child.  But he did not exert any authority.  So he was acquitted.

However, the case is on appeal, obviously.

[lagatta]

Yes, it is a minefield. Of course we want to protect vulnerable children and teens, but at the same time, I don't like to see teens sent to "youth centres" (apprenticeships for crime) for being horny. A cousin of mine was in one decades ago - not for sex, but general "acting up", and hung out with girls who were already involved in networks of thievery, prostitution and drug trafficking - very useful for gangs to have underage members who couldn't be sent to an actual prison.

In the case cited, even if the pubescent girl was "developed", I don't see how she could look or act more than 15 or so, and certainly not like a young adult. Usually the exceptions are for teens close in age.

Many of these cases (not my cousin) seem to occur in economically, socially and culturally deprived groups ... and also in fundamentalist sects, often polygamous. There are serious cases in a place called Bountiful, British Columbia, where patriarchs take many brides, often underage.

[bjd]

I recently read an article about how the USA is one of the countries with the most child marriages. It is up to the various states to set a minimum age, but of course, it is always the girl who is so young, not the male.

And I totally agree with Cheery and the others -- an 11-year old is not of an age to be freely having sexual relations.

With all these stories about sexual harassement in the news these days, I remembered that back in the old days, there was an occasional news brief from a country like Mexico of "10 year-old girl has baby". It was never mentioned that these were most certainly the results of rape, the father was never mentioned.

[kerouac2]

Child Marriage Common in USA

[Deleted]

Marriage and age of sexual consent are two totally different subjects.

[cheerypeabrain]

In order to be capable of consent one needs to be completely aware of what it is one is consenting to. Very difficult. We do need to protect the vulnerable (from themselves as well as from sexual predators)...it's not possible to ban 'casual sex' is it?..(anyway, how would you police it? ) One wonders where the 11 year old girl's guardians were whilst she was off having sex with a stranger.

Education is the only way to go (I know that it's not that easy). All over the world very young girls are being married off or raped every day aren't they? in many countries this sort of debate isn't happening because these girls have no status. In the 21st Century too Shameful.

[lugg]

In England its not quite as cut and dried as "penetration under the age of 16 years is rape" but it is cut and dried and the law is very clear in relation to under 13 years when it is deemed as rape of a child as they are not considered to legally be able to consent which means there is no need to prove an absence of consent .
The under 16 years rule re sex relates more to consent and it is very unlikely that two persons above the age of 13 and of similar age with no power imbalances/ abuse/ one with limited capacity would be prosecuted, but it does serve to protect those above 12 years who are being abused or exploited . Also the law gives protection to those above 16 years who are children ie to their 18th birthday eg illegal to distribute photos or videos and illegal for those in a position of trust eg a carer / teacher etc.

Anyway re the case in France in my view the judgement re the 11 year is appalling

[kerouac2]

There have actually been two cases in France concerning 11 year olds where the men were acquitted since nothing that they did corresponded to the legal definition of rape in France. That is why they now want to set an age limit, where it will become a crime (if not necessarily automatically rape) if under a certain age.

This is all really a mess of quicksand with puberty coming earlier and earlier (if not necessarily mentally) and morals continuing to shift. As for not being fooled by a girl who is 11 years old, I actually googled some images of this (although I confess that I used "12 years old" in my search), and I was totally shocked by some of the things that I saw. I preferred not to reproduce any of the images here, because it is bad enough for me to be suspected of paedophilia for doing that, but you would all be accomplices if you looked at the same photos. And this is ordinary everyday Google, not even the fucking darknet.

[questa]

"Every Australian jurisdiction has enacted legislation that criminalises sexual acts involving a child who, at the time of the offence, was below the legal age of consent (see Table 1). Generally speaking, if at the time of the offence the victim was below the age of consent, their consent to engage in the sexual act may not be used as a defence. However, in a number of jurisdictions (for example, the ACT, Victoria, Tasmania, Western Australia and South Australia) it is a defence if the defendant establishes that:

the accused person was a similar age to the child (defined as a 1, 2, 3 or 5 years older depending on the jurisdiction);
the child consented to the sexual activity; and
the child was over a specific age (typically 10 or 15 years old depending on the jurisdiction) and the defendant reasonably believed the child to be over the age of consent."

There follows the various details of the hotch-potch of each State and Territory laws with a great deal of flexibility on the circumstances of each case.

We do have severe sentencing for pedophiles and those found guilty of grooming behaviours.

The term used here for any sexual contact with a minor is "Carnal Knowledge"

[bixaorellana]

What are grooming behaviors?

[lagatta]

From the Oxford:
Prepare or train (someone) for a particular purpose or activity.
‘star pupils who are groomed for higher things’

2.1 (of a paedophile) prepare (a child) for a meeting, especially via an Internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offence

I think it could also be in person: seduction, but seducing a child (or a vulnerable person of any age).

[questa]

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, and sometimes the family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the object of sexual abuse.

www.kemh.health.wa.gov.au/services/sarc/documents/abuse.pdf

[bixaorellana]

Thanks, ladies. I guess I should have been able to figure that out, but also guess I'm grateful my mind doesn't work that way.

Yes, the judgment in France was appalling, but the law must be honored. As Kerouac pointed out, you can't convict someone of breaking a law that doesn't exist (yet).

[lagatta]

No, you can't convict someone of something most people would consider disgusting or morally reprehensible. Then you are getting into Guardians of the Iranian Revolution territory... or long ago, in Calvinist Geneva, when people were flogged for smiling. There must be statutes.

Questa, very good definition and explanation there.

[lugg]

I was interested to read about the SARC in Australia which appears from the article to be a resource centre - is that correct Questa or are they / it more than that ? We have SARCs in England but here they are centres which provide services to rape victims and sexual abuse victims with facilities so that examinations can be carried out in a way that meets forensic and thus prosecution standards . They also provide support services such as counselling for victims both adults and children and yes do act as a resource facility as well. SARC stands for Sexual Assault Referral centre in England.

[questa]

www.smartsafe.org.au/sexual-assault-referral-centre-sarc

Each State has its own facilities..this is typical of them all.

[lugg]

Thanks for the info Questa - so not so dissimilar at all

[rikita]

an 11 year old and 22 year old sounds quite bad - does it say anywhere what age she claimed to be/he believed her to be?

there was this case that went through the german media a lot about ten years ago, of a 17 year old german going to prison in turkey for having had sex with a 13 year old girl from the UK - he claimed that she said she was 15, i suppose that is not so unlikely a mistake to believe that ...

[tod2]

When I was around 10 years old I was encouraged by a 'worker' on the farm to come to him - beckoning constantly. I innocently walked to him and in a flash he grabbed me. Holding me tight he, what I can only describe as "rubbing himself on me", proceeded to do. I became afraid and pulled away running as fast as I could. My mother asked what was wrong and I think I told her XXX wanted to play with me.
It never went further...as far as I know but when I heard my father gave the kitchen boy a hiding for dropping the butter and putting it back in the dish (fingerprints and all) I can only wonder.
Yes, those were the days of what I can only describe as "White Mischief". I know that title belongs in the annuls of East Africa, but it was all over South Africa during and before the coronation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth.
I only re-call my mother being a secretary to Sir...XXX, and showing me the beautiful invitation to Her Majesty's coronation.

Aah, will Alzheimer's rid me of these memories one day...

[lagatta]

No, you don't want that. There are a lot of very elderly survivors of the Holocaust and other genocides here (we had one of the oldest survivors of the Armenian genocide, who died at well over 100) and as they lose their marbles, the horrors of many decades ago return to haunt them. Fear of showers, of walks in the snow, and other banal facts of life.

[tod2]

Yes, I guess you are right Lagatta. Luckily for me the whole sexual experience has not haunted me all my life. It is just a distant memory of something I did not like done to me at the time.

[kerouac2]

I missed about two weeks of news, so I was interested to see what was happening about this subject in France while I was away. It appears that the age of sexual majority will indeed be set officially at 15, but I don't know how long it will take.

In the meantime, there has been another case involving a teacher and his 14 year old student. She contacted him through Instagram and announced that she had the hots for him. He rejected her at first but apparently not for long. Anyway, he was charged with "sexual assault ('atteinte sexuelle') on a minor by a person holding moral authority" and "corruption of a minor." This could have led to a five year prison sentence.

He was acquitted of the "corruption" charge but was convicted of the other charge with an 18 month suspended sentence as well as a probation period and the requirement for psychiatric treatment and of course a permanent ban on working with minors.