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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 1, 2020 16:16:48 GMT
I thought it might be useful to open a new topic about the current situation in the United States.
I will start with a somewhat controversial idea. Quite a few businesses in areas with vandalism and destruction have been spray painting their protective plywood with information such as "black owned business." It seems to me that it is an incredibly racist society that would use this as a talisman for protection. It implies that it is 1) fine for the rioters to attack white owned (maybe Asian owned, South American owned…) places and 2) black people are automatically innocent, not to mention 3) all of the rioters are black -- which just isn't true.
I fully understand why these riots are happening and I also imagine that they were inevitable. The pressure cooker of American society has reached the explosion point with the antics of the president and other people like him.
But what will bring this to an end?
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 1, 2020 17:11:11 GMT
Whereas I can't argue with your statement that the US is incredibly racist, I think drawing your 1), 2), and 3) conclusions from what's spray painted on the plywood is a bit of a stretch.
People hurriedly protecting their store windows are probably not thinking on the deeper meaning of the painted message, just on what might work, no matter how poorly reasoned. This morning I read that business owners were pleading with protesters, saying "I don't have insurance." That doesn't make me conclude that those owners were suggesting that rioters go loot an insured business.
But enough hair-splitting, especially since I'm in complete accord with your penultimate sentence.
As to your question about what will bring it to an end ......
The fear in the short term is that extreme over-reaction will stop the protests. That of course will worsen the core problem and ramp up the fear that all reasonable people have, which is that this administration could actually succeed in becoming the dictatorship it's always been on course to become.
And re: fear -- fear is what drives prejudice, and that self-protective fear exists at the deepest, most animal level. The fact that so much of our society is based on and supported by injustice means that there is constant, reflexive, often unconscious shoring up of rationales for that injustice.
Along with many Americans, I wanted a Black president because it was past time for us to have one. Obama seemed like the right choice for that particular first. But it also seems that the sight of The Other at the highest level of "equality" actually exacerbated prejudice in great swaths of society, making them dig in even further with their fears and prejudices.
The truth is that Whiteness and only Whiteness and further, ideally the right kind of Whiteness, which would be male and not hyphenated -- pure Anglo-White -- is seen as the core value of the US, enshrined on the money and in the hearts and minds of millions of people.
So yeah -- what will bring it to an end?
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Post by whatagain on Jun 1, 2020 17:21:29 GMT
I think i would be looting if I were in the US today... The reaction of the orange monster is to say the democrat governor has not done his job !
Where are the reforms to tackle this overt racism, where are the apologues, the condolences ?
Where is john F Kennedy to say ' ich bin ein schwarze ?'
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Post by whatagain on Jun 1, 2020 19:12:02 GMT
Excellent post Huckle.
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Post by mossie on Jun 1, 2020 19:15:39 GMT
I think that it is extremely sad that the richest country in the world can't look after its poorest people, or heal the racial divisions. With regard to Mr Trump and his twitter out bursts I wonder who is the biggest and bestest 'jerk'?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 1, 2020 22:17:15 GMT
It is impossible not to think about all of the "lessons" that the United States is always giving to the world when there is unrest. I don't think that people will be listening to them for a bit of time.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 1, 2020 22:36:17 GMT
The POTUS is about to speak. It's gonna get worse.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 1, 2020 22:46:39 GMT
It is impossible not to think about all of the "lessons" that the United States is always giving to the world when there is unrest. I don't think that people will be listening to them for a bit of time. That ship has long since sailed. re: #bunkerboy's speech ~ I'll have to read it. I simply cannot look at him nor hear his voice.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 1, 2020 23:14:16 GMT
Particularly under this president, this is absolutely terrifying. The Wikipedia entry -- updated today with bitter tongue-in-cheek -- states: The general purpose of the Insurrection Act is to limit presidential power, relying on state and local governments for initial response in the event of insurrection.Even so: It further allows for the President to do the same [federalize the National Guard] in a state without the explicit consent of a state's government if it becomes impracticable to enforce federal laws through ordinary proceedings or if states are unable to safeguard its inhabitants' civil rights.
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Post by lagatta on Jun 1, 2020 23:29:02 GMT
And all those laws go back to a time when chattel slavery was legal! That means not just exploiting labour, but the very bodies of slaves belonging to their masters, who had every right to separate spouses, steal their children etc. Serfdom (as in Russia) was horrible too, but usually conjugal and family units were respected.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 12:57:48 GMT
It seems like the looters have pretty much finished stocking up on things.
Waiting for the next chapter with the soldiers and the guns. There have been very few guns so far, considering the national agitation.
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Post by whatagain on Jun 2, 2020 14:03:04 GMT
I saw circulate that the cause of death of George Floyd has been established : his skin color.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 14:58:33 GMT
There is a demonstration in Paris tonight on the parvis of the Tribunal de Paris, much better place than attempting an event at the American embassy. If I were younger, I would go. But I am not younger.
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Post by htmb on Jun 2, 2020 15:36:02 GMT
Is it correct that locations for demonstrations must be pre-approved? By the police/préfecture?
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Post by lagatta on Jun 2, 2020 15:38:29 GMT
This will be very hard for certain of my Parisian friends, some of whom are considerably older than I am. Yes, it was a better venue for the demonstration. Both the US embassy in Ottawa and the US consulate here are such bunkers that one feels demonstrations have little impact.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 16:04:22 GMT
Is it correct that locations for demonstrations must be pre-approved? By the police/préfecture? Yes, you have to declare an intent to demonstrate and obtain a permit. Naturally, that does not stop unauthorised demonstrations, but this one is authorised.
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Post by htmb on Jun 2, 2020 16:19:32 GMT
Being out by the Tribunal will make access much more difficult for some who might be interested in participating. I also assume, the idea of sanctioning a demonstration just off the Champs-Élysées, in front of, or near, the American Embassy, wouldn’t have a chance in hell of being sanctioned by the French or the US governments.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 16:36:02 GMT
Places like the Champs Elysées, Place de la Concorde, the Assemblée Nationale, the Ministry of Justice, etc. are almost never authorised for any sort of political gathering.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 19:14:57 GMT
As an example of how the foreign media is observing the current situation, here is an Australian example.
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Post by mossie on Jun 2, 2020 20:42:14 GMT
So shocking to see the media being treated like that. Mr Trump is digging an even deeper hole to bury his election chances in. However on our Channel 4 news tonight they interviewed a black lawyer who was even to the right of Trump and represented a black faction for Trump. He was spouting absolute nonsense, it just makes me wonder how this is all going to pan out. It is extremely bad publicity both for Mr Trump and America in general.
As an outsider I hesitate to comment but today has really shocked me.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 2, 2020 21:33:36 GMT
Being out by the Tribunal will make access much more difficult for some who might be interested in participating. The demonstration was forbidden, but it still drew a crowd of 20,000. Tear gas at 21:00, final dispersion around 23:00. Dumpsters and scooters on fire.
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Post by casimira on Jun 2, 2020 21:48:19 GMT
If the media people are foolish enough to put themselves in harm's way, they are going to get harmed.
It's just that simple.
They are adults no? Why would anyone be foolish enough to put themselves in a dangerous position like that?
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Post by htmb on Jun 2, 2020 21:57:09 GMT
I didn’t watch the video, but most media people are doing their jobs of reporting the news.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jun 2, 2020 22:19:04 GMT
Casimira! The media is there to report. They are doing their jobs in a public place in a supposedly first world country. Did you look at the footage in #20? First of all, the media had permission to be there. Yes, the police wanted the demonstrators to step back. But really, the whole point of protest is to not step back. And look at the demonstrators -- regular people not carrying anything that could be used as a weapon. Even their signs are dinky pieces of cardboard with no supports. They were just milling around, certainly not forming up in any way that was menacing. I don't know how a skinny girl in her 20s, lightly dressed and holding a piece of cardboard over her head with both hands is a threat to anyone. And that girl is pretty much representative of all the crowd we can see. Why the hell did the riot gear clad cops have to run at that crowd in shield wall mode?!
I'm sure our butthole president and his ilk would be delighted to have no media so they could control the narrative in their lying way. Get rid of the media. Don't let the truth out. Take over the country. The End.
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Post by casimira on Jun 3, 2020 11:32:50 GMT
I did watch the video and saw it all.
I am not condoning or justifying the media being treated the way they were.
I do take some issue in the way they sometimes fan the flames and do not allow other peaceful demonstrators any access and take on an attitude of entitlement and often times behave very aggressively.
In 1973 I participated in a Peace rally in St. Louis that was also a cry on our part to impeach then President Richard Nixon.
I walked aside Dave Dellinger who spent a lifetime as an activist for non violent social change. (I believe he was the oldest member of the Chicago 7 and was imprisoned many times for peacefully demonstrating).
Both he and I were knocked down by an eager journalist for the then St. Louis Post Dispatch who was carrying a heavy camcorder. (those machines in those days weighed a ton!!)
Mr. Dellinger, who was not a young man at that time, was injured. I got swacked in the head. The journalist did not stop or pause to inquire after his or my well being.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 3, 2020 11:55:50 GMT
Wow, it sounds like you are harbouring a grudge from 47 years ago about totally different people. You wouldn't be the first.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Jun 3, 2020 17:16:44 GMT
My friend Mary says that (no matter how sympathetic I am) I can never really understand what it's like to be the victim of racism. We don't speak about racism at all usually....but I am aware that I could be unintentinally racist (which is also unforgivable). Everybody was appalled by the murder of George Floyd by a policeman. It's tragic that even in the 21st century we are still struggling with issues that should have simple solutions in a properly civilised society.
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Post by onlyMark on Jun 5, 2020 8:36:50 GMT
I'm uncomfortable seeing the police in the UK 'taking a knee'. In all matters, no matter what and without exception and no matter their personal opinions, which I have no problem about them expressing in private, they should be neutral. The Met (London) authorities have said is is up to their discretion for their officers. To me, that is troubling. Police do not take sides, do not show bias, favouritism or indicate in any way they prefer one side to another with anything at all and especially with divisive subjects.
There are core principles - protecting life and property, preserving order, preventing the commission of offences and bringing offenders to justice. I see photos of some taking a knee and some not and immediately the public wonder why some have not. This then opens up the question of if that policeman/woman agrees and condemns the subject or not and this then further questions the neutrality of the Police in performing their core duties to all without exception.
Doing this is an appeal to be liked and an 'I am one of you' expressions. Well, you shouldn't be one of anyone. You are the Police. You should stand above and apart from anything and everything and have an opinion on nothing unless it is part of your proscribed duty. Stop it, because it is the thin edge of the wedge and will naturally progress on to further expressions in future times on other subjects to which you have no business at all having opinions on and will become even more divisive within the ranks of the force and in the eyes of those you are obligated to serve. i.e. the public, 'without fear or favour'. End of minor rant.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jun 5, 2020 8:48:56 GMT
Agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jun 5, 2020 11:06:40 GMT
I am more disturbed by the religious connotation of it, not to mention the fact that it is ambiguous. You're never sure exactly why they are taking a knee, and many of them are doing it to just not be conspicuous when a lot of the others are doing it.
I do believe that the police are doing the right thing when they show sympathy during a specific event. If a police officer were to see, for example, a mother and baby decapitated right before their eyes and all they did was say "no comment" I would be appalled. They are human beings with feelings. Robocop has not yet been perfected.
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