How Far Is Too Far?

[casimira]

This has come up recently so many times in general conversation of late so I am going to throw this out there for people to comment on.
Case in point: just now in the 8 song game the theme being Songs of Summer, I thought to post the classic song Summertime by any number of artists.
Would people be offended by that because it depicts a shameful era in US history and therefore it be forgotten and erased?
The word "Master" bedroom was said recently and someone in our company took offense.
The Dixie Beer Co. announced it would stop using the name "Dixie" as a label for their product.
Street names and statues all over NOLA are being renamed because the people they are named after were once slave owners. This I get. They shouldn't be glorified.
But, at a certain point, how far is too far in people's minds?
Am I going to be branded as being racist if I trip up and use the wrong word or phrase?
There are umpteen examples of this and some very liberal friends of mine have drawn a red line over certain ones. (the Dixie Beer) He felt that this was going too far.
I just don't know.

[mickthecactus]

Washington was a slave owner. Should he go and his City with him?

[monetsmum]

We can't change history, we just have to learn from it.   

We recently had calls for the statue of Winston Churchill to be removed. I asked one commentator if he was going to burn all his five pound notes because they have Churchill on the reverse.  

Just how far are they willing to go?   

[bjd]

I agree with the others. It's one thing to change the names of products that are considered offensive by certain people, but another to rewrite history. I saw that in Berlin there is a museum of statues that have been removed (like Lenin, for example) but are explained and put into context.



Teaching history is better than hiding it and then having things come up and be used by people with an agenda.

[spaceneedle]

Presentism is problematic. There are many who feel that modern values and ideals should be used to judge people and practices of the past. And in doing so, historical figures and references should be eradicated because they do not measure up to current standards.

I think that we can safely say that most people in the Western world do not condone slavery, and most Americans do not either. But I also struggle with the idea that that we should wipe these old (and wrong) references from our history.

I do not think that statues depicting figures from the past who condoned slavery should be in public buildings. I've never thought that was a good idea. But on the other hand, should they be destroyed?

[tod2]

Trying to wreck the past as if it did not happen is pathetic.
Monetsmum says it in one sentence and we all see that it is true, but it seems that there are people who want to close their eyes and ears to the past but trying to obliterate all evidence. That leaves future generations without a clue about past history, and it IS the past, It happened whether you like it or not. And what's more - You weren't even there!
I live in a very Victorian city. The buildings and lots of houses are Victoriana. So far they have been protected if not all successfully, by law, but Queen Victoria's statue has been vandalised by paint but it is still there. Ghandi's statue still stands although I do know that many years ago a naughty schoolboy climbed up and removed his spectacles. But he is still there. Like many places museums have preserved the past history and laid it open for us to learn from.

[questa]

What is the saying? "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
(or something like that)

[kerouac2]

I am a bit perplexed at the desire to remove black icons from popular products (Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima...). Should all products be represented by white figureheads instead? How about President Donald's rice, Kim K's pancake mix?

Meanwhile, fried chicken was first made by West Africans, so what is Colonel Sanders doing selling it as though he invented it?

[patricklondon]

Jul 2, 2020 14:01:41 GMT kerouac2 said:

I am a bit perplexed at the desire to remove black icons from popular products (Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima...). Should all products be represented by white figureheads instead?

As I understand it, that's not the point. It's what sort of iconic image, defined by whom.

[tod2]

Jul 2, 2020 13:54:42 GMT questa said:

What is the saying? "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
(or something like that)

I was watching Rick Stevens on YouTube Travel video the other day and he remarked that although the citizens of Paris got rid of Louis & Marie, another similar situation arose when Napoleon got to the top of the heap.
Which brings me to the conclusion that a fish eats a little smaller than himself, before he is eaten by a fish much larger than himself……and so on.

[bixaorellana]

Jul 2, 2020 0:34:07 GMT casimira said:

The Dixie Beer Co. announced it would stop using the name "Dixie" as a label for their product.

Okay, that one is too far, but maybe not so important anymore since it's not the original Dixie anyway & they ruined the greatest label ever made. (yes, that's a digression)
The song Dixie is now considered as bad as flying the Confederate flag. After all it was written for blackface minstrel shows & was the unofficial song of the Confederacy. Those are good reasons to retire it. That said, I don't really get the Dixie Chicks changing their name, as to me the word Dixie simply means the southern US.

Jul 2, 2020 7:39:07 GMT bjd said:

a museum of statues that have been removed (like Lenin, for example) but are explained and put into context.

No reason why some of these statues shouldn't go in a museum, but ignoring the true history of many of our "heroes" to the point of having statues of them and naming things after them is really is a way of enshrining colonialism and Whiteness.
All across the US south there are statues of generic Confederate soldiers in front of courthouses -- there's one in my hometown. Doesn't this announce that what the town is most proud of is having seceded from and fought a war against the very country to which it now belongs and to which it owes allegiance? How crazy is that?!

Jul 2, 2020 14:01:41 GMT kerouac2 said:

the desire to remove black icons from popular products (Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima...)

And I am perplexed that you have forgotten a prevalent feature of your Mississippi boyhood. Elderly Black people were called "aunt" or "uncle" as a sort of demeaning respect, i.e. because Whites considered them "good Negroes", but could hardly call them Mrs. or Mr., as those titles were reserved for the "superior" race.

Jul 2, 2020 7:43:48 GMT spaceneedle said:

Presentism is problematic. There are many who feel that modern values and ideals should be used to judge people and practices of the past. And in doing so, historical figures and references should be eradicated because they do not measure up to current standards.
I think that we can safely say that most people in the Western world do not condone slavery, and most Americans do not either. But I also struggle with the idea that that we should wipe these old (and wrong) references from our history.

I don't quite know what you're getting at. No slaveholder statues in public buildings, but the ones dotted outside all over the US are okay?
As far as "modern values and ideals being used to judge people and practices of the past", the 19th century was not such a deep past that entire states of consciousness were different than ours. What of abolitionists? They lived back then, too. Almost all slave owners in the US south claimed to be Christians. Unless they were all card carrying mental patients, they knew damned well that depriving other humans of their liberty in order to have free labor was maybe just the teeniest bit in conflict with what Jesus taught.
I haven't seen any call to wipe references from our history, but wanting them put into the proper context is long past due.

Jul 2, 2020 12:31:51 GMT tod2 said:

Trying to wreck the past as if it did not happen is pathetic.

It's not about wrecking the past, it's about presenting an accurate picture of the past.

[spaceneedle]

I don't quite know what you're getting at. No slaveholder statues in public buildings, but the ones dotted outside all over the US are okay?

What people do on private property is generally protected in America, so unless we start raiding private properties, if someone wants an offensive object there (and it's not against the law) then there is not much anyone can do about it. I personally can't stand the inflatable reindeer my neighbor insists on inflating on his property every Christmas, but I can't really do anything about it being there. Public buildings are one thing, but unless private property rights are abolished, there's not much anyone can do about those.

As far as "modern values and ideals being used to judge people and practices of the past", the 19th century was not such a deep past that entire states of consciousness were different than ours.

Apparently you've forgotten about the way women were treated during those times. No property rights, no rights to children if divorced and no access to money if married. I would definitely call that a much different state of 'consciousness'.

What of abolitionists? They lived back then, too. Almost all slave owners in the US south claimed to be Christians. Unless they were all card carrying mental patients, they knew damned well that depriving other humans of their liberty in order to have free labor was maybe just the teeniest bit in conflict with what Jesus taught. I haven't seen any call to wipe references from our history, but wanting them put into the proper context is long past due.

You obviously haven't been in a University in a while.

[tod2]

Bixa - Sorry that didn't come out quite as I meant. By wrecking I meant the destroying of past and infamous rulers and historical figures in statue form , paintings and written text etc. As horrible as their deeds and actions were, the future generations need to know what they looked like if they are going to identify and have any meaning with history. Just my thoughts.

Now about calling elderly people "Auntie or Uncle". Back then it might have been demeaning, but in today's South Africa where the majority of the population is black - this address to a person older (and wiser) is one of the most respectful ways of referring to them in conversation or directly in their presence.
This African respectful termanology for their elders is also used by the Afrikaner nation. Their children are not expected to call you either by your first name or Mr./Mrs So & So. It's alway Aunt or Uncle.

[kerouac2]

Jul 3, 2020 5:16:21 GMT bixaorellana said:

And I am perplexed that you have forgotten a prevalent feature of your Mississippi boyhood. Elderly Black people were called "aunt" or "uncle" as a sort of demeaning respect

I'm not sure if we are living on the same planet, Bixa. We actually didn't have any black people in our close relations back then, not close enough to call aunt or uncle, but there were a number of white friends who received that title when I was little. It was a way to allow you to call your parents' friends by their name -- Uncle Matt or Aunt Lillian instead of Mr. Smith or Mrs. Jones. And of course, they were always the ones to initiate this since most (American) children would not do this spontaneously. It is just as common in France, and as Tod2 points out, it is normal in Africa -- also in Arab and Asian cultures. The moment I introduced my Singaporean friends to my parents, they called them Uncle Jack and Aunt Yvonne, because it is a form of friendly respect.

I suppose that different not necessarily southern groups have different customs, though. I'm always horrified in American movies when the children are always saying "Yes Ma'am" to their mother and "Yes sir" to their father, as though they were not even in the same family. (To be honest, aristocratic levels of French society do this with the VOUS and TU forms. But when you see the parents saying VOUS to their children -or vice versa- in a movie, it is just an indication for the plot to show you that these are horrible people or at least have a broomstick stuck up their arse.)

To conclude, I will just say that I find aunt and uncle to be very friendly words, and it is a shame to try to stamp them out.

[casimira]

Bixa, you know more than I do, I didn't know that they had changed the label on the Dixie beer. When was that?
That was just about everyone's beer of choice in my early days here. Everyone drank Dixie. I even recall the "bad batch" and that put people off it for awhile but eventually went back to it.
Wasn't it called "Dixie 45" for awhile?

Anyway, back to the Aunt and Uncle thing. I don't get where you are going with this. I don't see it as having to do with anything race or class. I always thought that was a universal thing, or at the very least the US.
We grew up (in the NE) being taught to call close family friends one or the other. So, it wasn't even regional. At least, with T. he has a y at the end of his name so that's not quite so awkward for him.

[questa]

I don't travel on public transport often but I took the tram which goes to the city from my street recently. Our carriage was full but there was an Aboriginal woman in her sixties roaming around the carriage completely drunk and waving a spirit bottle in people's faces and shouting in her language.

Her husband and two teen aged kids had moved away from her so as she got to me I said "Auntie, sit here." as another couple moved away. When she sat down she said "Cousin girl, I am so tired." I asked her what language she spoke and she told me "Three".. Then she started telling me her mother's story and how she had to know 3 languages.

She was still very loud so I pretended to turn down a volume knob on her hand and mimed her getting softer.She thought this very funny and I kept calling her Auntie and she called me Cousin sister or cousin girl.

The people in the tram had relaxed and were listening to her story and the man had mouthed "Thank you" through the glass to me. I enjoyed the chance to know someone for half an hour who had a great story to tell.I'm sure it was because I called her 'Auntie'that she settled down and shared her story and I liked being Cousin Sister.

[tod2]

Questa you are very brave and extremely patient. . I have no doubt that I would have not entertained her drunken assault on me. But I guess you had already surmised all Corona Virus's had long flee'd her body as the alcohol cleansed her blood. It is not a derogatory statement I make when I say that the only Aboriginal people I came across during my 6 week stay, were either drunk in towns or just hanging out. Australia has its ethnic problems and I don't want to speculate here as the problem world wide for Ethnic minorities is a sorry one. All of a sudden - well since 1994 I became an ethnic minority but maybe had a chance at not being sucked into the chasm of hopelessness so many find themselves in. I feel sorry for her family.

[kerouac2]

Here is a question for both Questa and Tod2: Are there any products for the general (and not just ethnic) public in Australia or South Africa which promote aboriginals or ethnic Africans as the symbol and/or selling point for the product?

[tod2]

Oh my goodness Kerouac - That is a difficult question for me. I only know the tourist tat is what is formnost in bringing in income. In Australia that is all the products I encountered but was managed by Aboriginals and of a high quality.
If I think about it long enough I know there are hair products, and other stuff but that is I.m pretty sure made in China.
Am I confused?

[kerouac2]

You are probably accurate. After all, I don't think that the United States has any major products made by native Americans. It is all just arts and crafts, just like what the aboriginals and ethnic South Africans sell. And even one American brand (Land o'Lakes) which used an Indian maiden as the symbol for its dairy products got rid of her very recently because it was "racist." Go figure.


It looks like the plan is to erase all black and native American symbols from American products in this new Trump world.  That leaves them with Colonel Sanders, Betty Crocker, Martha White and other purely anglo faces.  I don't think Peter Pan peanut butter can last long because he is of questionable ethnicity and probably gay.

[casimira]

Tod, you are not alone. We are all confused but, some just won't admit it.

[bixaorellana]

Jul 3, 2020 7:01:45 GMT spaceneedle said:

Apparently you've forgotten about the way women were treated during those times. No property rights, no rights to children if divorced and no access to money if married. I would definitely call that a much different state of 'consciousness'.

No, I have not forgotten. Apparently you have forgotten how hard women fought to get those rights and the fact that they're still fighting sexism, unequal pay, and for control over their own bodies, proving that attitudes about women haven't changed all that radically despite legislation. Groups such as Black Lives Matter are fighting for the same kind of thing -- to be automatically seen as citizens, rather than having race be the uppermost way of seeing another person.

Jul 3, 2020 7:39:31 GMT tod2 said:

By wrecking I meant the destroying of past and infamous rulers and historical figures in statue form , paintings and written text etc. As horrible as their deeds and actions were, the future generations need to know what they looked like if they are going to identify and have any meaning with history.

Yes, Tod, I agree that history should not be wiped out and that images are part of history. But if you go on Wikipedia or any number of sources you can see all the photos you want of Hitler and find reams and reams of material written about him. But you won't find any statues or public monuments because he is a historical figure who is not to be celebrated. In the case of the US, the civil war is part of its history and should be accurately taught. But keeping up monuments to the traitorous side gives a very strange message.

Jul 3, 2020 10:44:45 GMT kerouac2 said:

I'm not sure if we are living on the same planet, Bixa. We actually didn't have any black people in our close relations back then, not close enough to call aunt or uncle, but there were a number of white friends who received that title when I was little.

Jul 3, 2020 13:07:07 GMT casimira said:

Anyway, back to the Aunt and Uncle thing. I don't get where you are going with this. I don't see it as having to do with anything race or class. I always thought that was a universal thing, or at the very least the US.

If you and Casimira both carefully read what I wrote, you will see that I am NOT talking about the common honorific given by children to adult friends of the family. I don't know about Bay St. Louis (or Pass Christian, can't remember which one it was) back then, but where I'm from, the aunt/uncle use as I specifically described it for Black people was standard. And not only there, but throughout the old South and maybe other parts of the US. A Black friend of mine from New York knows the usage, too, as do all the people who object to Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima as product symbols. I'm kind of surprised that you aren't familiar with that common and demeaning usage, but perhaps it's because of different demographics where we grew up. Do you all imagine that I just make this shit up?

Casimira, google "old dixie beer label". The one I remember is the nice plain green Dixie on a white background. The last time I had a Dixie in NO, there was a much more elaborate label. After googling, I see the nice plain one is back, but with the legend "Born 1907. Reborn 2017." across the bottom, so very much like the one I remember.

[kerouac2]

I continue to see nothing demeaning about being called aunt or uncle since the entire world does it affectionately. It isn't at all the same as when a black man was called 'boy'.  You mut have been surrounded by evil people with evil thoughts.

[bixaorellana]

It is fairly close to the use of boy in that way. Your last sentence is just plain stupid and your rejecting of my correct explanation is willful ignorance.

[kerouac2]

"Correct"

[cheerypeabrain]

It is a bit of a minefield isn't it?

Talking of products...up until the late 70s early 80s Robinson's Jam used to have a black toy figurine (called a Golly***) on the labels...children collected the labels and sent off for badges. My sister had several and was jolly proud of them. They quietly went away. These characters also featured in Enid Blyton and other stories...it's acknowledged that they are no longer acceptible, which is a good thing obviously...and they got edited out. We don't miss them.

We can't change the past...we can regroup and adapt. Acknowledge and apologise. Give back the Elgin Marbles....

[bixaorellana]

Well said, dear Cheery.

[questa]

Belatedly I add my 2 bob's worth...
Up until the 1967 referendum Aboriginal people were not counted on any roll or classed as citizens of Australia, therefore were hardly good copy for advertisers. Remember, when they were added to the Census only 3 % of the population called themselves aboriginal, unlike the Sth African situation.

Since then a lot of changes have occurred. There are enough Uni. graduates and business leaders to make it "normal".There are all the Arts beautifully linking the cultures. Education stands out for the imaginary ways this has been handled.

The least progress has been in the Health situation.Fresh foods are very expensive in the outback, so diet is poor. There is a genetic tendency to Diabetes and kidney failure which leads to multiple kidney transplants and dialysis machines. Once they "feel better" they stop taking anti rejection meds and diabetics have diet problems.

At one stage there was a major problem with petrol sniffing and kids just wandered around glazed eyed waiting to die of liver failure. This has been replaced by 'recreational' drugs smuggled to the communities. There is a long way to go but at least efforts are being made.

Two words you must learn...Nungah (in Sth Oz) and Koori.(rest of Oz) These are the names they call themselves. Most just use Koori ...sounds like courier without the last syllable. I will use it here...OK?

[questa]

Jul 3, 2020 18:51:04 GMT cheerypeabrain said:

Talking of products...up until the late 70s early 80s Robinson's Jam used to have a black toy figurine (called a Golly***) on the labels.

In Burma I went to the hotel shop to get some toothpaste. The box had on it a picture of a "Song and dance man " from the deep South,in a red and white striped suit and straw hat in hand.

The brand of toothpaste was "Darkie" ...No, I did not buy there.

[kerouac2]

I remember seeing Darkie toothpaste in several Asian countries before Colgate pushed everybody out.