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Post by lagatta on Sept 8, 2020 22:38:22 GMT
Dear anyporters, please merge this article into any relevant ones already here: www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/02/myth-white-parisienne-is-being-challenged-lindsey-tramuta-alice-pfeiffer-and-aissa-maigaI don't agree with everything she says, as in general I am on board with state secularism. We could have a separate discussion as to what extent it should cover things like how people dress. Kerouac has done a splendid job showing, yes, some stereotypical Parisiennes, often of a certain age, but many crowds that look like people in cities everywhere. Indeed, Mayor Hidalgo, from the very south of Spain, is considered "white" while former Socialist cabinet minister Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, from the very north of Morocco, is still seen as "foreign". Both are staunch secularists. They are pretty much the same hue. I love Paris. But I love it as a diverse and multicolour city, and want more housing options for those with less money, who like everywhere have a lot to contribute.
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Post by bjd on Sept 9, 2020 8:42:13 GMT
I have been thinking about that article. For one thing, an American who moves to Paris and suddenly (okay 10 years) becomes an "expert" on French women, how they are supposed to look and dress, annoys me. I agree that looking in from the outside gives a different perspective on things, but why should she get on her high horse about French women? She lives here so must find something positive about the country.
Furthermore, lots of French women accept a certain stereotype and indeed are proud of it.Just have a look on YouTube and you will see how many French women use their nationality and the idea that French women have a certain chic to give fashion advice (don't wear leggings!). Of course most French women don't look like Inès de Fressange! Just walk down any street or go to a supermarket and you will see women of all shapes and colours (the colours of course depend on where you are -- few dark skins where I live now or in the middle of the country). And I don't believe many of those women all over the country ever bother thinking about that "thin white stereotype".
And finally, that same "thin white stereotype" is a marketing tool. How many young Japanese women would want to come to Paris, and indeed get "Paris disease" if the city was marketed as large black women in colourful clothing in La Goutte d'Or?
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Post by mossie on Sept 9, 2020 11:02:24 GMT
They come in a variety of shapes and sizes, take your pick!
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 9, 2020 12:01:09 GMT
There is so much bullshit in that article that I had trouble finishing it.
And who sees Najat Vallaud-Belkacem as foreign?
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Post by lagatta on Sept 9, 2020 13:49:17 GMT
I loved Mossie's photo.
I do think that there is a stereotype based on wealthy women in certain beaux quartiers, but that is just as true in terms of Manhattan or L.A. in the US. and other famous cities in various countries.
And there is now marketing of Black Paris (whether the US expatriates of a century ago or people from Africa or the Antilles) targeting Black travellers.
I didn't post the article because I agreed with it. What I disagreed with most, though, was the antisecularist stuff. That is very common among anglophone writers.
And I do wear leggings (underneath a skirt) if I'm cycling and the weather turns cold. I hate leggings worn with nothing over them as I view them as undergarments, or gym wear. Blue legs (of any shade) are not a good look.
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Post by kerouac2 on Sept 9, 2020 15:06:27 GMT
There is little if any myth of Parisian women in France. That all died out with the cheesy fashion magazines of the 50's and 60's but it is alive and well in a lot of the rest of the world. Naturally, the fashion industry continues to provide mythical images to the world press, not just of the ridiculous items that those poor models are forced to wear but of the spectators who dress for the occasion -- and they are mostly foreign.
It would be nice if the fashion industry would move out of Paris and Milan and take the myth with it.
There were so many black American, African and Antillean refugees living in Paris that it was only a matter of time before those 'black Paris' tours started. I use the word 'refugee' quite broadly since many did not come for political reasons but because they fell in love with the city and many could participate in the cultural life in ways that were not open to them in their home countries. And it isn't just black people who go on those tours.
Ricki Stevenson is one of the main tour guides for this, but she unfortunately focuses almost exclusively on American black figures. Then again, that's what her American clientele wants. I just hope that people like Léopold Sédar Senghor or Aimé Césaire get at least a passing mention.
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Post by tod2 on Sept 9, 2020 16:24:56 GMT
Oh Kerouac. May I be so bold as to say anything is better than where they were. I am looking from a very very dark African perspective.
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Post by bixaorellana on Sept 9, 2020 18:17:16 GMT
My take on the article is that the author of "The New Parisienne" was mostly churning a theme that has been done to death. Further, it was most unsuccessful as a book review since it quickly bounced off topic. At the end, I was unsure of her point, as she mostly concentrated on talking about the long-standing stereotypes of French chic, then rather abruptly went on to a foggy look at racism and other attitudes. I think this was because the reviewer turned it into a portmanteau review of several books which blurred the purported review of "The New Parisienne". By the time I got through the article (with much scanning), I'd forgotten that it was the book being reviewed.
Really, I don't think that the stereotype of the thin, effortlessly chic and informed Parisienne will ever go away because tourists will always keep it alive. Go to any travel site and you'll realize there are many, many people whose ideal of travel is going to the tourist hot spots of any given country. There they will be happily fed the stereotypical ideals and will return home exclaiming, "It's better than I even imagined!" Anyone who has visited Paris knows there are pockets that could cater to that attitude, especially since humans have a habit of seeing what they want to see.
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