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Post by hwinpp on Oct 9, 2009 9:04:32 GMT
Uh? Really?
That's hard to believe.
I don't think there's a system worse than the Hindu caste system. That's why it's been around for so long. Indians don't even dare think of getting rid of it it's so ingrained in them (sure, there are some progressive forces that do think about getting rid of it, they get killed).
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Post by spindrift on Oct 9, 2009 11:35:03 GMT
Nevertheless that was what she said. She herself was born into the highest strata of society so she knows no other life.
I agree with what you say about the Hindu caste system. From time to time I dip into the Laws of Manu in an effort to understand why things are as they are in the sub-continent.
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Post by tillystar on Oct 9, 2009 11:47:09 GMT
I suppose it depends on what is important to an individual. If being regarded by others as being a toff is important to a person they'd feel they were bettering themselves. I know my tosser toff of a boss thinks he is super cool now that he has hooked an aristocratic widow. Personally I think what he did to get there means he has lowered himself immensely.
Being regarded by others as being in a higher class isn't something I aspire to, I think it’s a load of nonsense and have great friends from all classes and know tossers from all walks of life too!
Sadly in the UK people do get very caught up in it, even in this day and age. I have a very lovely, kind, intelligent friend, just a great person to be around, who is very hung-up on being working class and thinks everyone she knows who she perceives as “middle class” is automatically so much better than her. That girl needs a good slap now and then!
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Post by fumobici on Oct 9, 2009 15:17:34 GMT
I can't express how nice it is to move in circles where judgmental class distinctions are close to being non-existent. I don't think anybody with a healthy psyche worries about such nonsense, it's strictly a crutch for people who lack a healthy self-confidence.
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Post by Kimby on Oct 12, 2009 16:56:14 GMT
For some people "class" is a non-issue for much of their lives.
Until they are ready to get married. Then, even if THEY are not class-conscious, their parents may be.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 7:01:03 GMT
Some people discover it from meeting the other person's circle of friends.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 16:12:33 GMT
True. And it's interesting to know people from both sides of the class system.
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Post by fumobici on Oct 13, 2009 17:47:51 GMT
Having moved in both the highest and lowest of circles and everything between, it's hard for me imagining being content socially constrained to any single stratum. I like some of the characteristics common to both the upper and lower classes, but I think the middle classes have it best- both above and below them people tend to be overly preoccupied with money. People that think about money a lot tend to be uninteresting and thus dull company.
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Post by lola on Oct 13, 2009 18:35:38 GMT
When we went to our dear niece's wedding in another part of the country this weekend and met their family for the first time, I wanted our side to project at least the illusion of a prosperous respectability to reassure the groom's people. Or to average out to that anyway, so they wouldn't think their boy was saddled with a bunch of moneyborrowing hillbillies.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2009 21:27:46 GMT
One of my best friends married a banker. I gradually lost touch with her, particularly since she had a baby and was quite occupied. However, I was later invited to the 50th birthday of her husband, an elaborate affair in Normandy. I followed the map and arrived at a fabulous mansion on several hectares of land. This was just their holiday residence. A large tent had been set up on the ground for the banquet of the symbolic 50 friends. There was a table on which to display the spectacular gifts that everyone had brought, rare books, sculptures, antiques, all extremely valuable. I did not bring such a gift.
I never saw that friend again, after seeing her new world and how comfortable she appeared to be in it. All of our years of nightlong discussions concerning our shared values were wiped away forever on that afternoon.
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Post by lola on Oct 13, 2009 21:54:00 GMT
She might still need you as a touchstone.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2009 0:20:49 GMT
For some people "class" is a non-issue for much of their lives. Until they are ready to get married. Then, even if THEY are not class-conscious, their parents may be. This is so true, and I remember my MIL not long after I met her in the early stages of Mr. C's and my courtship so to speak,one time saying to me "so I understand you're from potato people". Mr. C. and I fell out laughing so hard at this. But, she was damn serious. Mr. C's family being Irish/Catholic working class,mine Polish/Catholic working class. There was still that distinction in her head though. Also, his family being city dwellers and mine country I'm sure was a distinction . We still laugh about it to this day.
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Post by rikita on Oct 14, 2009 20:25:47 GMT
kerouac - but did you talk to her about how she feels about all this? even if she gets along well in her new world, as you say, she might still see it critical?
what for me was interesting was the contrast in peru. when i first arrived i stayed with the sister of a friend of my dad's, who lives in miraflores in lima. she is a real estate agent, her husband a psychologist, and while they are not super-rich, they definitely made a good living... then i went on to cusco, where i stayed in a cheap room and got friends with my neighbours there, and of course did my research in a nearby village, spending a lot of time with people working as peasants or in kiosks or at construction sites, eating potatoes and rice with them every day etc. ... before leaving peru, i visited my friends in lima again, and while i got along well with them again, it was strange to me to realize what a different world it is. she knew of course how people in her country often live, and was socially concious and all - but at the same time, it seemed to me that the poorer people of peru were as far from her, as they are from me here in germany...
another thing i find interesting is that in the UK class is often associated with certain accents. i don't remember who it was, but some german living in the UK told me that she often confused people, because they didn't know where to place her socially, because she didn't have an accent they could place...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2009 20:38:05 GMT
No, rikita, we did not discuss it. It seemed to be mutally understood that we are now on completely different planets. Obviously it saddens me, but it is better to know that she is living the life of the rich than if she had sunk into poverty.
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Post by Kimby on Oct 14, 2009 22:20:02 GMT
Maybe. Perhaps well-fed and shallow beats hungry but engaged with the world.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2020 16:47:30 GMT
After Lugg started this thread the posts discussing class in the Trump thread were moved to this one. That explains a few of the "wrong thread" comments in the first posts below.
Lugg's OPENING POST is: The origins of this began in the United States of president Trump thread.
Following Bixa's encouragement I am starting this thread for those who would like to debate that sometimes touchy subject of class. Do you think it is affected by culture, nationality, religion or race? Or maybe your own family background, education, profession or job ... or is it something else ? If you like you could even define your own class. [BJD wrote:]I think we're in the wrong thread here, but do any Americans actually define themselves as "working class"? I thought everybody feels middle-class in the States.
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Post by fumobici on Dec 7, 2020 16:51:23 GMT
I think we're in the wrong thread here, but do any Americans actually define themselves as "working class"? I thought everybody feels middle-class in the States. Middle class in the US is drying up and blowing away, the rich are getting richer and the poor, poorer. By design. Precarious labor is more easily exploited.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2020 17:07:49 GMT
What are all of those suburbs for then?
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 7, 2020 19:06:29 GMT
do any Americans actually define themselves as "working class"? I thought everybody feels middle-class in the States. Broadly speaking, I think most people from the US see it as having an extensive middle class, ranging from not-much-income to almost-rich. I don't know if it's still okay to say "blue collar", but in my experience there are many people who would self-identify as working class. It would be interesting to track -- not only in the US, but around the world -- how the prevalence of easy credit changed/changes a person's perception of his/her class. With credit you don't need to make the big bucks in order to appear as though you do.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2020 19:18:57 GMT
I'm not sure that the idea of "working class" was simply a question of money, at least elsewhere than the States from what you seem to imply, Bixa. People felt they belonged to the working class because of the way they earned their living, their social and family background, their way of life and, often, their political leanings.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2020 19:39:09 GMT
In France, it has been shown that a huge number of people say they are in the middle class when they are actually in the top 20% or even higher because to the French money is evil. I would be very interested if there are any statistics concerning the United States saying how people classify themselves compared to their actual category.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2020 19:42:35 GMT
I'm not sure that the idea of "working class" was simply a question of money Very true. In France, people like plumbers are working class but considered to earn very high salaries. This would be strange to a lot of Americans, but even some waiters are in the high income category, and I'm not talking about tips.
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 7, 2020 19:55:30 GMT
I'm not sure that the idea of "working class" was simply a question of money, at least elsewhere than the States from what you seem to imply, Bixa. People felt they belonged to the working class because of the way they earned their living, their social and family background, their way of life and, often, their political leanings. I'm not sure how you interpreted what I wrote, but it was not in contradiction of what you say here.
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Post by bjd on Dec 7, 2020 20:19:12 GMT
Bixa, I had understood your post as saying that once people had money, whether earned or borrowed with easy credit, they could appear to be middle class.
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Post by lugg on Dec 7, 2020 20:53:11 GMT
This is so interesting - how do you define your class and does this differ in various nations/ cultures ...maybe deserves another separate thread ?
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 7, 2020 21:15:27 GMT
Bixa, I had understood your post as saying that once people had money, whether earned or borrowed with easy credit, they could appear to be middle class. It would be interesting to track -- not only in the US, but around the world -- how the prevalence of easy credit changed/changes a person's perception of his/her class. Well, yes -- theoretically we could appear to be royalty with the right clothes, for instance, but that wasn't my point. I was musing on whether being able to acquire the "right" look or supposedly desirable housing and goods might make a person see himself as a certain class.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 7, 2020 21:23:45 GMT
how do you define your class and does this differ in various nations/ cultures . That is one of the great mysteries, particularly since different countries have different criteria. Some use money as the gauge while others use leisure and culture. Some countries just use health and longevity. One thing that I find a bit ridiculous is the annual calculation of which country is the "happiest." That is another item which is calculated differently in every country. The French always come out very low on the scale because they love to complain. Here is a list: Finland. Denmark. Switzerland. ... Iceland. ... Norway. ... Netherlands. ... Sweden. ... New Zealand We don't even know what makes them happy. Probably not the weather or the cuisine...
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 7, 2020 21:40:54 GMT
define your class and does this differ in various nations/ cultures ...maybe deserves another separate thread ? Lugg, if you want to make a new thread, that would be great. Once you've started it, all the pertinent posts can be moved there. It's a super topic!
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Post by lugg on Dec 9, 2020 20:02:24 GMT
Thanks Bixa - It is going to take me a few days to gather my thoughts on how I define myself but I will come back to post.
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Post by casimira on Dec 9, 2020 20:38:11 GMT
Thanks Bixa - It is going to take me a few days to gather my thoughts on how I define myself but I will come back to post. Thanks Lugg. Take your time. We're a patient lot for the most part...Great topic with lots of interesting aspects to discuss. I think Fumobici really nails it wth what he says. No surprise there.
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