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Post by onlyMark on Dec 9, 2020 21:41:31 GMT
I am aware I come from a class ridden country that judges people on the faintest of premises. I have often had discussions with fluent and unaccented English speaking Germans who are fascinated by the minutiae of how the British determine the class of a person and I mention the fluent/unaccented thing because they often ask me about the pronunciation of words they have learnt and the perception of a native English speaker. These several people are all in fields where they regularly communicate with native English speakers and it is a big part of their working day to day life. On the other hand, maybe they are just trying to find something to talk to me about.
Personally, I now have working class and middle class traits and whereas some may consider me middle class because of my circumstances, others would say I am working class because of my accent and attitudes to some things. Many identifiers can be quite subtle (names, shoes, walk, scarf and how it is knotted, how you treat others, food order, utensils.... the list is endless) and there is such a blurring of the line between the two you can maybe only have some certainty if the person becomes a stereotype/cliché of one class or the other. You wouldn't be working class if you are middle or upper management but you can be upper class if you are a carpenter, for example. It's hellishly complicated. That's why probably there has to be sub-categories of upper working, lower middle, upper middle, and lower upper etc. To try an get a named box to put someone in.
I love observing aspects of class by the way.
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Post by questa on Dec 9, 2020 23:12:03 GMT
Having lived with families who were of different classes and attended posh boarding school and overcrowded rough school I can offer some suggestions.
Manners and speech."My Fair Lady" was spot on! For me a person's class is shown in how they relate to others with respect and courtesy, and their use of language.Two things that indicate "working class" in Oz in speech is females' use of the 'rising terminal'. This is when every few words the speaker lifts her voice as if asking a question.The other is the habit of both genders to finish every sentence with a broad "Ayy"
Education and general knowledge. They don't have to be a Quiz winner, but a working knowledge of some histories, science and books in general is a classy sign.The higher class people are more likely to attend university than get a trade, but this is changing now.
More money does not mean higher class, especially if it is "new" money. Once "gentlemen" went to work in offices and the lower classes worked with their hands in trades. Now Tradies have incomes matching many professionals and can afford to travel, buy yachts etc. but they will still lack the class driven "old boys' network"
One of Us. Eventually it comes down to this definition. How do you pick a person's class? Ask yourself is he or she one of us.Do they fit in our undefined group or does something irritate. Class is almost non-existent in Oz in that you are expected to treat and be treated the same way for everyone.
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Post by fumobici on Dec 10, 2020 1:20:52 GMT
What I see are countries that are relatively prosperous, with excellent social and educational systems, little squalor or intergenerational poverty, non-corrupt government institutions, and societies with high social trust. I think these all go together, the recipe for happiness involves all these ingredients. Prosperity is maybe the least important.
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Post by mickthecactus on Dec 10, 2020 7:56:58 GMT
Questa, what about starting sentences with “look”.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 10, 2020 8:12:06 GMT
What I see are countries that are relatively prosperous, with excellent social and educational systems, little squalor or intergenerational poverty, non-corrupt government institutions, and societies with high social trust. I think these all go together, the recipe for happiness involves all these ingredients. Prosperity is maybe the least important. There is also a lot of national brainwashing involved, much of it quite Orwellian. When you throw in a few monkey wrenches like suicide rates, alcoholism and religious influence, the images tend to crack a bit.
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Post by mickthecactus on Dec 10, 2020 9:32:27 GMT
Somebody may have said that class has nothing to do with money and that is so true. One of my acquaintances is a retired accountant who was described as knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 10, 2020 11:02:23 GMT
In France, it has been shown that a huge number of people say they are in the middle class when they are actually in the top 20% or even higher because to the French money is evil. I would be very interested if there are any statistics concerning the United States saying how people classify themselves compared to their actual category. Same in Belgium. I was considering myself to belong in the wirking class, since i wirk, and in middle class, by birth. I think i was more upper middle class by birth, and upgraded to low upper class by work. Now if you look at income, i belong to the 10pc higher income, so does that mean i belong to upper class ? Not sure. I dont play golf, dont wear a Rolex, have simple tastes, albeit throw money on travel food wine and books. Not on clothes to the despair of my wife...
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Post by questa on Dec 10, 2020 16:15:45 GMT
Don't confuse "Class" with "Condition".Probably the better description that defines class is Behaviour, or even response to a situation.
Mick,I don't understand your bit about "look"
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Post by mickthecactus on Dec 10, 2020 16:46:55 GMT
Perhaps it’s just peculiar to cricket but when Jason Gillespie was being interviewed he started every sentence with “look” and I’ve heard others do it. Aussie polliticians in particular.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 10, 2020 17:34:44 GMT
You'll have to forgive countries that have had revolutions 200 years ago or more to not understand the ingrained class system of the Commonwealth countries, which seem to cherish it.
We understand the working class, middle class and upper class basically in terms of their financial capacities while their behaviour is defined by a different albeit somewhat parallel scale. Someone can be called uncouth in any financial category, just as anybody can have "savoir vivre" or not. And let's not get started about the nouveaux riches.
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Post by questa on Dec 11, 2020 1:28:30 GMT
Mick, just a stalling technique habit. I seen it used by people who have to answer interviewers or speak on lots of committees. I had a friend who actually used "actually" about every sentence. Actually she was stalling while she worked out her next sentence and actually it works. "Look" seems more like a request for the interviewer to see his point of view.
K2, "Class" however it is defined, is learned through being in the constant presence of others of that class. As the child grows it learns what "We" do is the accepted behaviour, not like the ponces on the hill or the lay-abouts in the Public housing. The indicators of class vary but are very hard to change. A recent drought drove farmers from the land to the cities to find work. They were a group that stuck together. There is a saying that covers all the class debate so well.
You can take the Man out of the Bush (ie country) ,
but you can't take the Bush out of the Man.
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Post by mickthecactus on Dec 11, 2020 8:02:37 GMT
Malcolm Turnbull was on Question Time last night and said "look" at the start of the sentence.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Dec 11, 2020 18:18:31 GMT
Upper class are the aristocrats, it isn't about money...you can't buy your way in. It is possible to move about within the middle class and working class bands I think. Profession is more important than earnings (the super rich are outside the class system as they are not necessarily accepted by the aristos and they look down on the rest of us). Where you live and how big your house is, where your children attend school, where you went to university and how you behave are all relevant. I thought that we were middle-middle class because I was a healthcare professional, Jeff a master craftsman (later manager) and we had a mortgage. In reality we are much lower down the social ladder. I don't really care
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Post by mossie on Dec 11, 2020 19:43:28 GMT
The starter word to answers that annoys me is "So"
As for class I suppose I can only define myself as lower middle class, when my daughter was being taken to a posh upper class school, the women taking her were eager to know what I did and she had no idea. I told her to tell them that I was a roadman and went to work with my trousers tied up with string, got some surprised looks.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 11, 2020 19:47:19 GMT
You are so right about "so." It demeans the person who has just spoken instantly.
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Post by kerouac2 on Dec 11, 2020 20:14:46 GMT
I have merged an old thread from 2009 into this one.
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Post by mickthecactus on Dec 11, 2020 20:16:36 GMT
Oh I like that Mossie. Brilliant!
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Post by questa on Dec 12, 2020 1:27:02 GMT
K2...we were instructed in my work training never to use 'so' or 'obviously' as both are put-down words. I had trouble at the posh school as they would not ask for something with a "please" but use an emphasised "oh,DO" Me,"Pass the salt, please" Them,"Oh, DO pass the salt" Upper class are the aristocrats, it isn't about money...you can't buy your way in. It is possible to move about within the middle class and working class bands I think. Profession is more important than earnings (the super rich are outside the class system as they are not necessarily accepted by the aristos and they look down on the rest of us). Where you live and how big your house is, where your children attend school, where you went to university and how you behave are all relevant. Well said, cheery. For the aristos it is WHICH university and college they attended, for the plebs it is just attending Uni that counts. Ditto getting married, choosing baby's names and godparents, right down to Nannies talking to other (selected) Nannies as they walk in the Park. There are a couple of aristo sayings that set my teeth on edge. 1) "I had this dress made by a little woman across Town" and Really! These people have no idea what they are doing!" End of class-less rant.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 12, 2020 9:52:49 GMT
The starter word to answers that annoys me is "So" As for class I suppose I can only define myself as lower middle class, when my daughter was being taken to a posh upper class school, the women taking her were eager to know what I did and she had no idea. I told her to tell them that I was a roadman and went to work with my trousers tied up with string, got some surprised looks. At the time my son entered school i was busy with the project of restarting deliveries of sand by riverboats, so the word sand was often mentioned. When he went to school he said i was pushing sand. (Balayeur de sable, the guy with a brush). I liked it.
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Post by whatagain on Dec 12, 2020 9:54:03 GMT
If upper class means aristocracy, we still have nibility here. But they are alongside the system, if there is one in Belgium. They don't mix with us, mortals.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Dec 12, 2020 21:25:00 GMT
I avoid situations where I would have the opportunity to rub shoulders with the super posh. 2 of my sisters used to attend lots of Hunt Balls and Charity Balls in the 80s and 90s where they had to wear gowns and lots of make up. These things lasted hours and hours...with breakfast thrown in. Tickets cost a fortune and the 'nobs' (the upper classes) didn't really go. It was all aspirational middle class folk pretending that they were terrible posh. I was invited a few times but told my BiL that I'd rather eat my own leg. When we go on a cruise we look for informal dining, we are not really into formal wear..altho obviously if we suddenly came into shedloads of cash I'd like to cruise to New York on a big posh ship and wear the appropriate attire...formal but tasteful... I can't be trusted with posh people...the posher they are the grubbier I get. I let everybody down
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Post by questa on Dec 13, 2020 0:07:35 GMT
No, no, cheerie, You send everyone UP. They can't decide whether you are upper or lower. Let's face it, you love discombobulating them. While they are trying to fit you into a little box, you know who you are and they are no better than you. I'm a bit like that, too. My former spouse was taxi driver and frequently had VIPs sitting in the front beside him *. I would hear the news and opinions long before the newscasts, and astute pollies asked the driver what the opinions were being aired. I loved being able to tell people,"As the PM told my husband yesterday..." or "the Gov. General said to my husband last week".
*One custom that comes straight from the egalitarian nature of Aussies is 'where to sit in a cab in Oz'. The Man will see his woman into a back seat, then get into the seat beside the driver. If there are 2 couples, the alpha male sits in front. Ditto for 2 males. One female sits where she likes (I go upfront as I chat with the driver) two females sit in the back as they chat together. Have any of the travellers here noticed this?
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Post by bixaorellana on Dec 13, 2020 3:38:00 GMT
The only grasp of the class system I have is that of the US. Because of the way I grew up, I consider myself squarely in the very broad middle of the middle class, not in the lower middle nor the upper middle. Even through my ups and downs of fortune as an adult, I still think of myself as a middle class American.
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