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Post by onlyMark on May 16, 2021 17:20:39 GMT
Question for those who might know or can find out, as I'm struggling to find a definitive answer for now without directly asking the Immigration authorities, which I may end up doing.
UK passport holder, non-EU resident, flies from a Balkan non-EU and non-Schengen country direct to Germany. German Immigration stamp the UK passport - thus getting the clock counting for the rule of only 90 days in any 180 days allowed in Schengen. He stays in Germany for a a few days and then flies from Germany to Austria - thus no passport check. He transits through Vienna airport to fly back to the same Balkan country and passes through Austrian Immigration. The official does not stamp the passport but 'swipes' it through the system. In fact the official when asked to stamp it so the stay in Schengen is easily seen and referenced by any other Immigration official any other time, says he cannot stamp it as he is not allowed to.
When asked if swiping is enough to show exit, he replies again, he is not allowed to stamp it. When asked why did the official on entry to Germany stamp it then, he again repeats, "I am not allowed to."
1) Why did the German official stamp it? and/or, why is the Austrian official not allowed to? 2) When swiping the passport on exit, are we confident there is now a record of exiting Austria - and - can this record be accessed by another Schengen country, such as Spain, if the person wants to re-enter Schengen there - so the days of stay previously in Germany can be seen? 3) Or, will just having and entry stamp but no exit stamp cause problems?
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Post by kerouac2 on May 16, 2021 17:27:38 GMT
1. Different countries have different rules, even in the Schengen zone, but in any case you stamp OR swipe a passport -- you don't do both. 2. Yes, the Schengen countries share the data bases on entry and exit.
It is still wise to keep proof of your travels in case you are challenged.
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Post by onlyMark on May 16, 2021 18:28:18 GMT
Proof in different forms I have. The Immigration man in Germany did both. I saw him. First he swiped and then I was a little surprised he stamped, but I didn't query it at the time. Doubt if it make a difference but as long as the exit swipe in Vienna records me leaving, then that'll do me.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 16, 2021 19:42:23 GMT
Passport stamps will disappear forever soon. Collect them while you can.
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Post by onlyMark on May 16, 2021 20:00:33 GMT
Especially if/when ETIAS comes in to play.
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Post by fumobici on May 17, 2021 14:42:35 GMT
What I don't understand is why the last two times I flew from Florence to Frankfurt there was a passport control before boarding the plane. Maybe to do with Visas and in-country time limits? I found it annoying as I'd have to go through another passport control line in a few hours anyway.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2021 14:54:57 GMT
It's going to get worse. Next year, you non-EU citizens will be forced to apply online for an ETIAS certification (the EU's answer to the American ESTA thingie). Luckily it is only 7 euros per person over the age of 18 (free for minors) and is valid for 3 years or until the expiration date of the passport. But France is taking it one step further (theoretically). I can't imagine that this will really be enforced, because it is awful: Documents to be presented upon arrival in FranceThis would imply that when you arrive in France and book a first night in a hotel, it would be out of the question to wander around at whim to discover the country. WTF?
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Post by htmb on May 17, 2021 15:36:08 GMT
It's going to get worse. Next year, you non-EU citizens will be forced to apply online for an ETIAS certification (the EU's answer to the American ESTA thingie). Luckily it is only 7 euros per person over the age of 18 (free for minors) and is valid for 3 years or until the expiration date of the passport. But France is taking it one step further (theoretically). I can't imagine that this will really be enforced, because it is awful: Documents to be presented upon arrival in FranceThis would imply that when you arrive in France and book a first night in a hotel, it would be out of the question to wander around at whim to discover the country. WTF? “Awful” seems to be too mild of a word to use. How in the world can they expect someone to supply all that information at the border! It’s crazy, and would delay passport control for hours upon end, even they only spot-checked individuals.
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Post by fumobici on May 17, 2021 15:41:29 GMT
Yeah, how will they control non-EU tourists who rent a car and enter through the non-controlled land borders? Put the burden on hoteliers I suppose, but there's no way AirBnB owners will be refusing accommodation (and the money) because of some minor irregularity in the required document stack. This seems remarkably poorly thought-out, they'll be backpedaling on this the minute the planeloads of rich American tourists begin disgorging in Paris.
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Post by htmb on May 17, 2021 15:54:56 GMT
It’s very confusing as written. I also tried entering information as if I were a citizen of another EU country and was taken to the same “you might have to provide these documents at the border” page for both short term and long term stays.
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Post by mich64 on May 17, 2021 15:57:55 GMT
For every holiday, I create an itinerary like I would for a business trip. Quite detailed with dates, times, all vehicle and hotel reservations with adressess, phone numbers and confirmation numbers. I then develop a small binder with printouts of all said material, copies of our international health insurance, bank and credit card phone numbers. On our phones, we keep a file of current pay stubs. Also in the binder are printouts of sites to visit and restaurants we would like to try. I am that kind of a traveller. I could never book a flight and upon arrival start wandering, totally incapable of that but I do envy people who can!
I have had border/custom control personnel look at me oddly while others have complimented me on the detail.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2021 16:41:44 GMT
Oh, mich, you are the perfect tourist! You are welcome here. The rest of you except for huckle will have to stay home.
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Post by onlyMark on May 17, 2021 16:48:50 GMT
That is horrendous.
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Post by fumobici on May 17, 2021 17:17:35 GMT
For every holiday, I create an itinerary like I would for a business trip. Quite detailed with dates, times, all vehicle and hotel reservations with adressess, phone numbers and confirmation numbers. I then develop a small binder with printouts of all said material, copies of our international health insurance, bank and credit card phone numbers. On our phones, we keep a file of current pay stubs. Also in the binder are printouts of sites to visit and restaurants we would like to try. I am that kind of a traveller. I could never book a flight and upon arrival start wandering, totally incapable of that but I do envy people who can! I have had border/custom control personnel look at me oddly while others have complimented me on the detail. I started out like you, and have lapsed into the opposite.
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Post by bjd on May 17, 2021 18:22:45 GMT
What is? Mich's planning or the French requirements? I confess that I am the opposite of Mich when going somewhere. Arrival and departure are essentially the only things that are definite. The rest is played by ear.
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Post by mich64 on May 17, 2021 18:29:16 GMT
I started out like you, and have lapsed into the opposite. Then there is hope for me too! Perhaps once my husband is retired I will relax more as holiday time will be extended (not trying to be so efficient to see as much as possible) and I will no have to worry about dates and times.
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Post by onlyMark on May 17, 2021 19:07:28 GMT
bjd, Mich can do no wrong, but the French regulations are what I mean. What I can't see so far on a quick look us what happens if I want to drive from Germany to Spain as a UK passport holder, transiting France. Bearing in mind I'll already be in Schengen but will have entered from a country that has seemingly a lot less requirements, i.e. Slovenia. I'll be transiting Croatia, Slovenia, Austria and into Germany where I'll stay for a short while (probably have to get a new PCR test) to then transit France to get to Spain (if they'll let me in by then). Talk about complicated.
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Post by fumobici on May 17, 2021 20:52:50 GMT
I'd probably just avoid France if they want to press this and spend my money elsewhere. I hate useless, soul-destroying bureaucratic hoops more than just about anything. And you know the streets of Paris and the rest of France will always be well stocked with people who are completely and officially tolerated who snuck across the borders with no papers at all.
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Post by mich64 on May 17, 2021 22:45:22 GMT
For a lot of us, most of these issues will probably be figured out by the time we get to travel, but Mark has some important questions and causes for concern right now. I imagine Mark that you get different answers every couple of phone inquiries. Unfortunately for you, you are our on the ground reporter at this point.
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Post by onlyMark on May 18, 2021 5:08:58 GMT
We'll see how things go Mich. For now I'll be going to Montenegro first.
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Post by bjd on May 18, 2021 6:35:46 GMT
I'd probably just avoid France if they want to press this and spend my money elsewhere. I hate useless, soul-destroying bureaucratic hoops more than just about anything. And you know the streets of Paris and the rest of France will always be well stocked with people who are completely and officially tolerated who snuck across the borders with no papers at all. I don't see how an American can complain about "soul-destroying bureacratic hoops" about borders. In New York my husband was once behind a French guy who wasn't allowed into the country because the border agent decided he had too much luggage for his two-week stay. And that was before 9/11. Not to mention the border with Mexico. It sounds as though you feel entitled to go anywhere you please without having to follow any rules. I'm not arguing that the rules in this case are reasonable, although they look more like what was needed to get into the Soviet Union rather than western Europe.
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Post by spaceneedle on May 18, 2021 8:48:42 GMT
There is no practical way the French requirements can be carried out. Lines would be ungodly long and there would not be enough people in passport control to handle it. Additionally, documents can easily be photoshopped and forged. It's not like the passport officials can verify the authenticity of every document from abroad they are shown. I would guess they will stop every 20th traveler to look at whatever they have and then wave them on after glancing at stuff.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 9:25:24 GMT
Oh, they won't even stop every 20th traveller. They just need a better legal framework to be able to turn unwanted people back without contestation. I believe they may have been inspired by the British.
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Post by onlyMark on May 18, 2021 10:26:59 GMT
Is this a competition to find out which country has the worst immigration rules/fails to adhere to those they do have? Oh goody, I like a challenge. I'll get back to you.
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 10:57:43 GMT
Not a competition at all, but I really DID read that some of the new rules are aimed at the British. Is that so hard to believe?
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 11:07:26 GMT
Anyway, here is the ETIAS website for people who need to learn more about that: www.etiasvisa.com/
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Post by onlyMark on May 18, 2021 13:49:36 GMT
I am aware of ETIAS but not read it in depth as yet as it says it isn't coming in until the end of 2022 - but - that is for Schengen. The France requirements as per your link - if someone enters Schengen in say, Spain with an ETIAS clearance, then wants to go to France, they also need a visa for France? Even though the Schengen ETIAS 'visa' has been obtained giving them freedom of movement throughout the Schengen countries?
It says, for example, on the French link regarding a short stay visa - "This is a visa issued by a Schengen Area member country for transit or stay in part of or all Schengen space." So unless all the other Schengen countries impose the exact same requirements as France, obtaining an easier Schengen visa in another country will/should/maybe over-rule the French requirements because the person already is in Schengen with authorisation - maybe.
I appreciate certain Schengen countries may have a restriction on the entry of other countries, and need a visa - e.g. Germany says anyone from Bhutan has to have a German visa to enter - but no other Schengen countries do - thus an ETIAS authorisation would be good for all of Schengen apart from Germany if you hold a Bhutan passport and you'd have to get a separate visa to enter Germany then. But - generally if there is no requirement for that extra visa specific to a country/passport holder you can get ETIAS and travel around Schengen - until you want to go to France and then have to fill out and produce all the other stuff? No matter what passport you hold.
If I fill out the form on the French thing asking if I need a visa, I say I am German in Germany, it rightly says I don't need a visa - but it does say I'll need to produce all the other documentation regarding funds, return ticket, accommodation etc. It also says I must have a valid passport..... "A valid passport issued less than 10 years before and valid for at least 3 months after the envisaged departure date;" Well, I don't. If I'm a German citizen I can enter with an ID card unless they decide to change or have changed that.
In other words, no matter all the other countries farting around and tit for tat stuff with entry regulations, unless this is made more clear and simple and doesn't go against the principles of the EU and Schengen already in force, one day I'll be locked up at the French border for 'discussing' it with them.
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Post by questa on May 18, 2021 14:03:47 GMT
Please, Teacher, What is Schengen?
Mark, this is the second time I have bailed you out of some dusty border jail. Do be careful!
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Post by kerouac2 on May 18, 2021 14:25:56 GMT
Mark, once you have ETIAS clearance for the Schengen zone, you can go anywhere else in the zone since there are no borders and no border checks (except now with the covid crap). It's the same for anybody with a Schengen visa.
If the French site says you need a passport to travel through the zone as a Schengen citizen, it is incorrect. A national identity card is sufficient. I know that in the old days, even a national identity card or a passport that had expired less than 5 years ago was acceptable, but I think that may no longer be the case. I would be curious to know what about EU countries that are non-Schengen (Ireland, Bulgaria, etc.)?
I am quite confident that the French rules are not at all created to be systematically enforced but to provide a framework for rejecting certain people on technicalities while preventing contestation. (I imagine that is what happened to most of the EU citizens rejected by the UK in that Guardian article.)
We were transitioning into a world where travel was becoming so much easier, with far fewer visas and other obstacles. That is no longer the case.
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Post by fumobici on May 18, 2021 15:02:23 GMT
"I don't see how an American can complain about "soul-destroying bureacratic[sic] hoops" about borders."
I feel embarrassment every time the plane is approaching the US and people (including US citizens!) are forced to fill out stupid paperwork no other country I'm aware of requires of visitors. If it were actually necessary, other countries would do it. It obviously isn't.
"In New York my husband was once behind a French guy who wasn't allowed into the country because the border agent decided he had too much luggage for his two-week stay. And that was before 9/11. Not to mention the border with Mexico."
That was surely just an asshole border agent, not a broad policy. I'm often astonished at the ridiculous quantity of luggage I see tourists pushing through airports. Americans and Eastern Europeans seem the most extreme. And what exactly about the US/Mexico border?
"It sounds as though you feel entitled to go anywhere you please without having to follow any rules. I'm not arguing that the rules in this case are reasonable, although they look more like what was needed to get into the Soviet Union rather than western Europe."
Obvious nonsense that I feel entitled, although I'm skeptical the French need worry anytime soon about hordes of undocumented US citizens turning up as street beggars or selling trinkets on sidewalks. These changes are quite obviously intended to be purely punitive rather than protective or functional.
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