|
Post by mickthecactus on Jul 14, 2021 19:17:30 GMT
Looks like a lot of unrest. Will it come to anything?
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 14, 2021 19:28:40 GMT
I am not in possession of the facts, but I suspect that the United States is responsible due to the former U.S. president strangling the Cuban economy even more. I think that everybody here agrees that communism is not the best system under which to live, but there are only about a half dozen communist countries left and they are all doing more or less fine except for the one that the United States has been trying to crush for more than 60 years. Meanwhile there are lots of non-communist countries that are in their death throes due to their dictatorial regimes whereby a tiny fraction of people fill their pockets and leave nothing for the general public. At least Cuba has one of the best health and educational systems in the world, even if it is not doing them much good due to the stranglehold of the embargo.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Jul 14, 2021 20:54:04 GMT
Yes, I'm very strongly against the embargo and other sanctions. And while I have no love for authoritarian communism (not what the term meant originally) I'm an ecosocialist as the Amazon rainforest becomes an emitter...
I'd love the Cuban people to have more freedom, but not lose free education and a healthcare system. And not bring back the mafia, not known for their love of civil rights.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Jul 14, 2021 22:09:58 GMT
Huckle speaks truth! The "Cubans" -- by now almost overwhelmingly US citizens of Cuban descent -- are a hateful group whose demands shouldn't be part of national policy.
Kerouac, I am surprised that you, of all people, fall back on the tired blaming of the US embargo for the many ills of Cuba. The embargo only makes the US look bad while, yes, hurting a small nation that poses no threat to the giant north of it. But it has always had the secondary but important double purpose of a red herring for Cuba's base problems and the symbolic Goliath in Fidel's long-running role of David. Díaz-Canel's speech the other day was practically word for word from that playbook.
Obviously the embargo should have been lifted decades ago. As it is, the food and "humanitarian supplies" (Wikipedia) part was lifted twenty years ago, but I do not deny that the embargo continues to hurt Cuba. But the problems of Cuba go much deeper and seem to have not been adequately addressed since the country semi-collapsed along with the Soviet Union.
For me, the saddest thing about visiting Cuba is seeing that a socialist state that one would fervently like to see succeeding after a dramatic underdog revolution is, in fact, failing.
Re: the much cited "best health and educational systems in the world" -- well okay it's true that Cuba has universal literacy and apparently very well trained doctors. But the country is not listed in any 20-best rankings and there appear to be very few opportunities for anyone, regardless of education.
Were it up to me, the embargo would be immediately lifted and the country provided with funds to help rebuild its infrastructure. And of course that raises the specter of the US sliding back in to turn that little nation into the kind of "playground" it was in the Batista era.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 5:01:46 GMT
Lift the embargo and then we'll talk. Compare with Vietnam, another communist country.
|
|
|
Post by bjd on Jul 15, 2021 6:14:20 GMT
Despite the general embargo, the US does allow food and medicines to be imported from the States. However, the Cubans have to pay in dollars and don't have much foreign currency.
As for the health and education systems, the chief Cuban export seems to be doctors and medical workers. The countries they are sent to pay the Cuban state for them -- the money does not reach the doctors themselves and doesn't trickle down into the general population. And allegedly, Cuban hospitals are in poor condition and lacking medicine.
True that the Cubans in Florida have been a huge brake on any progress of repairing relations.
The problems are on both sides -- the Cubans can excuse any shortcomings of their own (and there are many) by blaming the States. The US can just keep blaming "communism" for their negative relationship with a country so close to the coast.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 12:20:48 GMT
Am I the only person who is not shocked that countries that have applied to the Cuban government for medical assistance pay the Cuban government directly? Cuba paid 100% of the costs of medical school for its doctors and nurses. I am also quite convinced that the doctors receive a bit of compensation directly from individuals and communities where they are working, even in the most desperately impoverished places. Meals and gifts mean a lot when you are far from home for months. It is quite similar to volunteers from NGOs -- I don't think that the volunteers are demanding to be paid directly if at all for humanitarian assistance. Money is not the motivation of a lot of people.
|
|
|
Post by lagatta on Jul 15, 2021 13:04:39 GMT
Indeed Cuban medical staff get payment in kind at least in certain Caribbean and South American countries (this from direct stories). Including fashionable clothing.
I confess it annoys me when medical professionals who attended our publicly-funded universities go to work in the US where a great many people can't access healthcare. I have no such qualms if they are working in European countries that also have a healthcare system.
I don't have any miracle solution. I found the protests hopeful; will they have any effect towards greater democracy and checks on stultifying bureaucratic rule?
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Jul 15, 2021 14:15:41 GMT
Lift the embargo and then we'll talk. Compare with Vietnam, another communist country. This is complete misdirection, meant to "prove" that the embargo is the reason for Cuba's woes. Comparing Cuba to Vietnam only proves that Cuba badly mismanages itself. As far as the farmed-out doctors, I agree that it's common around the world for doctors to pay back in service for the training they received. But the Cuban doctors are too often indentured workers with no freedom and no protection provided by their own country. Cuba's free education and the healthcare system -- so? That is common in so many countries that it's barely worth mentioning. I have to echo what LaGatta said ~ I found the protests hopeful; will they have any effect towards greater democracy and checks on stultifying bureaucratic rule?
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 14:35:49 GMT
Are you really saying that it is not a noteworthy achievement for one of the poorest countries in the world to have excellent education and health care?
|
|
|
Post by fumobici on Jul 15, 2021 14:56:19 GMT
I can never forgive Cuba its iron-fisted authoritarianism in spite of its achievements. I'm a lefty and a socialist, but left-wing authoritarianism is hardly better than right-wing authoritarianism. Without political freedom, a society is on the wrong path.
Last thing however the US or FL need are more right-wing nutjob Cuban refugees. Those people are just the worst.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 15:57:04 GMT
Bixa knows that I love her dearly, but she has never been my go-to person for geopolitical analysis, just like most Americans. Like all of you (huckle, fumobici...), I was fed the usual American propaganda for a signficant portion of my life -- including all of my formal schooling -- but even as a child, i was able to determine that some of it was completely wrong. I can mostly thank my mother for this, but just having spent a lot of time in Europe from the age of 2, it was obvious that a lot of the "information" was total bullshit.
Americans mean well, and most of them are good people, but they grow up "learning" that the United States is the best country in the world -- the richest, the most democratic, the most free, the most fair, the strongest, the fiercest, most beautiful and so forth and so on. Basically "USA #1" which is still screamed by American mobs at every opportunity. This is drilled into every American brain for years and years. And why should they doubt it? Only 38% of Americans even have a passport and when I lived there it was closer to 18%. Why even look at the rest of the world when everything is better in the United States?
This leads to automatic statements such as "Cuba mismanages itself" of "iron-fisted authoritarianism" which are expressed without a thought that such an idea could be rationally contradicted. After all, you learned it in school.
Perhaps there will be a bit more humility in the future as the country slips from the #1 spot.
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Jul 15, 2021 16:03:24 GMT
Oh good -- another fatuous remark from Kerouac having nothing to do with the subject at hand & everything to do with his neurotic desire to continue tiresomely railing against the United States.
The fact that self-serving propaganda is rampant in the US (& probably pretty much every country in the world) does not negate the fact that "Cuba mismanages itself" and that it suffers from "iron-fisted authoritarianism" are true statements.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 16:11:25 GMT
Ah, Bixa is frothing at the mouth again. It is becoming increasingly common since she is incapable of accepting any contradiction. But everybody here has certainly already noticed that.
Please provide your sources for the claims you make.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 16:36:27 GMT
Then again, mismanagement is in the eye of the beholder. Does the country that spends the most on health have the best health care in the world? Do people actually have to pay those hospital bills? When the army spends $85,000 for a toilet, was the expense managed correctly? Does the strongest economy in the world properly finance things like unemployment compensation or maternity leave? (just thinking of a few off the top of my head)
Or is "mismanagement" just called "different priorities" in certain countries? People in glass houses...
|
|
|
Post by bixaorellana on Jul 15, 2021 17:23:59 GMT
Childishly and bitchily mocking me and my statements and putting words in my mouth do not an enriching dialogue make.
Are you incapable of staying on track? This is about Cuba, not about whether the US or any other country is "better".
|
|
|
Post by fumobici on Jul 15, 2021 17:30:14 GMT
Bixa knows that I love her dearly, but she has never been my go-to person for geopolitical analysis, just like most Americans. Like all of you (huckle, fumobici...), I was fed the usual American propaganda for a signficant portion of my life -- including all of my formal schooling -- but even as a child, i was able to determine that some of it was completely wrong. I can mostly thank my mother for this, but just having spent a lot of time in Europe from the age of 2, it was obvious that a lot of the "information" was total bullshit. Americans mean well, and most of them are good people, but they grow up "learning" that the United States is the best country in the world -- the richest, the most democratic, the most free, the most fair, the strongest, the fiercest, most beautiful and so forth and so on. Basically "USA #1" which is still screamed by American mobs at every opportunity. This is drilled into every American brain for years and years. And why should they doubt it? Only 38% of Americans even have a passport and when I lived there it was closer to 18%. Why even look at the rest of the world when everything is better in the United States? This leads to automatic statements such as "Cuba mismanages itself" of "iron-fisted authoritarianism" which are expressed without a thought that such an idea could be rationally contradicted. After all, you learned it in school. Perhaps there will be a bit more humility in the future as the country slips from the #1 spot. I, as you might expect, take exception to the characterization, and will on huckle's behalf as well. I defy you to show either of us engaging in any American Exceptionalism that isn't grounded in mundane geographic or economic facts. On other forums I'm often accused of being "anti-American" or even a "Russian agent" for my heterodox opinions. I could write a book on stupid things we in the US do that other countries often do better than us. The passport thing is simple, a change was made so one was required to go to our only land borders Mexico or Canada, and for air travel even within the US you'll either need a passport or an "enhanced" driverse license/state ID. Americans by and large are still an insular and un-cosmopolitan people, though it gets harder and harder in the internet age unless you doggedly stay within narrow guardrails.
|
|
|
Post by fumobici on Jul 15, 2021 17:36:51 GMT
Lift the embargo and then we'll talk. Compare with Vietnam, another communist country. Agree completely. The embargo is completely hypocritical given the cartoon villain states we cheerfully do unfettered trade with.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 17:43:36 GMT
Childishly and bitchily mocking me and my statements and putting words in my mouth do not an enriching dialogue make. Are you incapable of staying on track? This is about Cuba, not about whether the US or any other country is "better". By criticising Cuba, you were clearly comparing it to some other country. I like the "bitchily."
|
|
|
Post by huckle on Jul 15, 2021 18:16:01 GMT
Americans mean well, and most of them are good people, but they grow up "learning" that the United States is the best country in the world -- the richest, the most democratic, the most free, the most fair, the strongest, the fiercest, most beautiful and so forth and so on. Basically "USA #1" which is still screamed by American mobs at every opportunity. This is drilled into every American brain for years and years. Oh K2, even with your knowing so many of us, I'm surprised that you can make the above generalization. I, personally, know of no one who grew up with the "learning" you described wrapping up into "USA #1." I certainly did not. From my childhood on, I remember heated discussions among, friends, relatives, teachers and many others of how a flawed US could improve. I'm sorry that your view of Americans is so slanted.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 15, 2021 18:40:04 GMT
Perhaps growing up in Mississippi was the mistake, but it was not my choice. I dreamed of the big cities because I knew where I was was so wrong.
|
|
|
Post by casimira on Jul 15, 2021 19:56:58 GMT
Thank you for that statement Huckle. It speaks volumes about how many US citizens views can be misconstrued and interpreted.
And, I don't think that growing up in Mississippi can be used as a valid excuse Kerouac, no offense but, it sounds like kind of a "cop out".
The area in Mississippi where you "grew up" was not rural Mississippi and not particularly as "red neck" as the other rural areas of the state.
|
|
|
Post by htmb on Jul 15, 2021 22:03:10 GMT
I am certainly not a student of international politics, though I do try to keep up as best I can. And, while you are absolutely entitled to your opinions, Kerouac, I find the fact you have not lived in the United States in approximately fifty years speaks volumes when it comes to your political attitudes. As much as you read, watch the news, and keep yourself up to date, there’s something to be said for actually living in a place. I don’t know who is right or wrong when it comes to Cuba - I’m sure there are many gray areas - but I do know the voices of other Americans in posts above this one align with what I believe to be true.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 16, 2021 3:12:14 GMT
Yes, it's called dogmatism.
|
|
|
Post by questa on Jul 16, 2021 7:24:14 GMT
I have never studied the Cuba situation so the only comment I can add is that when I was in Vietnam I saw many bridges, health centres and schools built there by the Cubans, with money they could ill-afford. I would not be surprised if similar help is being returned.
|
|
|
Post by whatagain on Jul 16, 2021 7:51:45 GMT
A maye of mine is married to a Cuban, whilst he stays in zbelgium for work, she stays in Cuba. Yes, strange marriage. Anyway he says things in Cuba - day to day life - was ok unfer Obama and became hellish under Trump. Lot less food or at least choice of food, lot less work (lack of raw materials, spare parts).
Complicated. Lift embargo and life will improve dramatically is what he says she says.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 16, 2021 14:09:05 GMT
Some of the people here don't seem to know how the "problem" with the United States started.
This is from history.com, not exactly known for left wing leanings:
On the site of the U.S. State Department, here is the information about that period:
Opinions of who is right are probably influenced by the idea of "expropriations." This happens all the time all over the world, and the United States thinks it is horrible, even when the U.S. stole the resources in question (Chile - September 11, 1973). In the case of Cuba, the economy was almost totally under the control of the U.S. mafia, which the American government preferred to protect at all costs.
I could add more details, but I think it might be useful if my contradictors did a little of their own research, because I might be making up all of this, no?
And I certainly hope that they can provide the reasons why the current situation was not provoked by the United States.
On a related subject, I have noted that I am accused of being anti-American regularly. This seems to happen every time I point out something bad that the United States did. So -- shame on most of the rest of you, because you do the same thing quite regularly (gun control, environment, etc.) , or else just go cuddle in the arms of your Trump hero and be soothed.
|
|
|
Post by fumobici on Jul 16, 2021 14:45:33 GMT
I'm still waiting for a cogent explanation of why I was specifically called out as being dogmatically pro-US. I'll just wait here.
|
|
|
Post by kerouac2 on Jul 16, 2021 15:13:31 GMT
Please step to the side.
|
|
|
Post by casimira on Jul 16, 2021 17:04:47 GMT
Why don't you respond to the question K?. When you label someone a particular thing you should be able to specifically back up what you said.
It's unbecoming and ungentlemanly to do this. I thought better of you.
It's a pretty valid question after all.
|
|