Ramadan is upon us.

[Deleted]

Actually, it starts in about 5 days, but I have started receiving Ramadan greetings, since I work for an extremely Islamic company. Here are two delightful photos that I have saved so far.

A truly devout young girl adopts the proper garb at the earliest age possible without waiting until puberty.

We are also reminded of what is authorized to pass your lips between sunrise and sunset.

I'm not sure if you are allowed a sip of water with that.

[lagatta]

Probably, if it is for medical purposes. People with medical conditions that make fasting dangerous are exempted from fasting anyway - as are pregnant, nursing and menstruating women. The first two are obvious, but I'm sure the menstruation thing has to do with "uncleanliness", not delicate health.

The Ramadan flyers and ads are going round here as well. Glad it hasn't started today, as it is 35c with sweltering humidity. I feel a bit nauseated (though I love heat) and I've just consumed a whole bottle of Perrier water, and a few glasses of tap water.

Has that wee lass learnt to read the Holy Qoran?

[Deleted]

Ramadan starts at dawn tomorrow around the world.

Today, the newspapers were saying that 70% of French Muslims respect Ramadan (up from 60% before 11 Sept. 2001 and the religious wars that followed), but the details quickly pointed out that only 40% of people "of Muslim origin" did, meaning "non practicing Muslims" -- and that lots of them are not being completely honest. It is currently very fashionable to give full support to one's ethnic/religious group, and lots of people claim to respect the traditions without really doing so -- and they eat sandwiches and have a drink in hiding.

Ramadan will become more and more difficult to respect over the next 5 or 6 years, because it backs up 10 days a year, which will put it in the very longest days of the northern hemisphere.

I always wonder how it is handled in "the land of the midnight sun" since there obviously must be some Muslims who live in such places. Does anybody know what religious dispositions have been decided for such cases?

[bixaorellana]

Surely there must be a dispensation there, otherwise devout Muslims would starve to death during Rmadan!

[Deleted]

I think it would make sense to update this fasting business and just tell everybody "fasting between 07:00 and 19:00 local time" or some such -- Islam was invented before Muslims settled in totally different latitudes. In Paris right now the fasting times are from about 05:00 to 21:00 at this part of the month.

[bixaorellana]

Wouldn't you like to see the statistics of how production is down and accidents and mistakes are up in your area during Ramadan?

[lagatta]

There are dispensations, but it depends on the religious authority, and the individual's conscience. I knew practising Muslims teaching in northern Québec, and they would literally have died, if not of starvation, at least of dehydration.

kerouac, since you are north of us, although summer is waning, your days are longer than ours - 5am to 21h is pretty damned difficult in terms of lack of hydration!

Christianity had to modify lots of Jewish rules and customs observed by the first Christians. For one thing, Christians (of most confessions) no longer need to circumcise!

I remember the last summer cycle of Ramadan, but that was before 9-11 and very few of my friends of Muslim origin paid more than lip service to Ramadan.

[Deleted]

There is so much fanaticism these days that some people think that it is haram to swallow one's own saliva and that it must be spit out.

[lagatta]

other than being gross and a vector of disease, that is VERY dangerous in terms of dehydration.

I am REALLY getting annoyed at the stupid literalism and fundamentalism that seem to be prevailing in all the major world religions these days (not just the Abrahamic ones - Hindu fundies can be scary indeed). I was at a street sale in my very multi-culti working-class area and there were a bunch of Latinos being the "Jesus Army" (they had t-shirts on saying that, and yes, in English, not in Spanish or French - some bunch of crap imported from US fundies). Handing out leaflets - was able to stymie them by responding "No creo en Dios". At least the many hijabis were not handing out stuff about Ramadan, though a good friend of mine who is Moroccan (and not religious) got nasty comments recently from a devout neighbour for a) owning a dog and b) coming home a bit tipsy from her daughter's wedding. I got hounded recently by some Jewish fundies who go around asking people "est-ce que vous êtes juif-juive?"

I don't mean any of this as an aspersion on anyone's religious beliefs, just this recent nuttiness that is truly infecting the planet.

[bixaorellana]

Yeek -- be careful, LaGatta ~~ don't you know that we're in the End Days?

[Deleted]

This sort of thing always scares the shit out of me. I suppose that is the whole point.

[bixaorellana]

It might be tons more frightening if I had a clue about what he was saying. He may simply be demanding Lucky Charms instead of hot oatmeal.

That kind of goofy fanaticism exists in any kind of belief -- religious, political, what have you. Remember that actor named Marjoe, who started out as a kid preacher?

I think LaGatta made an excellent point in Reply #8, saying she didn't want to cast aspersions on anyone's religious beliefs. There are people all over the globe who adhere to different religions, but who are sane, responsible citizens.

[Deleted]

And those people do not use tiny children as trained animals.

[bixaorellana]

I wonder what happens to children like that as they get older. That kid looks as though he really believes whatever it is he's ranting about, so he must be well and truly brainwashed.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2009 16:59:05 GMT bixaorellana said:

That kind of goofy fanaticism exists in any kind of belief -- religious, political, what have you. Remember that actor named Marjoe, who started out as a kid preacher?

I think LaGatta made an excellent point in Reply #8, saying she didn't want to cast aspersions on anyone's religious beliefs. There are people all over the globe who adhere to different religions, but who are sane, responsible citizens.

My opinion is that Islam is the biggest threat to the Western civilization, more harmful even than the Communism Soviet style which was just another economical system. I don't care by saying so that I might hurt anyone's religious belief. Why should I respect other people beliefs when they are contrary to my opinion or values? I don't ask other people to respect my political opinions for instance, I even welcome anyone to challenge them. If some of your family members, Bixa, were to join a Neo Nazi party, would you just accept and respect their opinion ?

I'm an atheist (and again I don't ask anyone to respect my "belief") so I shouldn't have any preference for one religion over another but the fact is that in the Christian countries anyone can repudiate their religion, embrace any other one, even Islam (alas!). Here I don't make mystery of my atheism. What do you think would happen to me if I proclaimed that there is no such thing as a God in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia ?
I have travelled in a few Muslim countries. I obviously coudn't pretend to be a Muslim but I had to say that I was Catholic (I wanted to scream that I was not). Saying that you're an atheist can get you into bad trouble. Even with ordinary people..
So much for the "tolerant peaceful Islam."

Of course there are a few fanatics in the Christian countries (although in Europe you have a hard time to find them) but nothing of the magnitude of the Islamic world. There is nothing here to compare to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Salafist movements, the Taliban, the Hizb ut-Tahrir to name a few. These groups have millions of members throughout the world.

I'm not saying that Islam is inherently more noxious than Christianism (well it is to some extend); but the difference is that it is at the same stage of its evolution* than the Christianism six or seven hundred years ago at the Golden Age of Inquisition.

* I don't mean "progress". There is no progress possible in religion. If the religion is less harmful in our countries, even moribund in France, it's only because rationality has taken over superstition.

This is the best I could do with my English. Good night!

[bixaorellana]

Askar, just to clarify ...... In a social setting, it's not that one has respect for the belief, but respect for the person who may come from that belief system. That was my point above, that I'd rather not gratuitously offend readers of this forum whose inner life is satisfied by a particular religion or who were raised in it by their families, whether or not they reject it later.

You are more traveled than I, and I hardly doubt your depiction of various Muslim countries. However, that begs the question of whether it's the religion itself that is intrinsically evil, or the uses to which it's been put politically.

I suppose people isolate themselves within fanaticism because of fear -- fear of self-knowledge? I don't know. But thinking about the kinds of fundamentalists in the US -- a secular state -- who would blow up an abortion clinic, it's obvious that fundamentalist fanaticism knows no religious nor national boundaries. It's also obvious that if you could channel that fear, hatred, and willingness to lash out, you'd be well on the way to creating a zombie population willing to champion any madness.

I don't think I explained myself very well, but hope you see that I am trying to separate one thing -- religion per se -- from another, that of a religion being twisted to political means.

[Deleted]

In my office, there is practically a battle among the various Muslims. Most of them are respecting the fast (at least in front of witnesses), but spend all of their time complaining about being tired, hungry, etc., and are in a very bad mood.

Other Muslims, both respecting the fast or not, have been reading them the riot act, saying that they have understood nothing about Ramadan if they think it is a time to complain and to make excuses about why they can't work properly.

If Ramadan is making them miserable and cranky, they are obviously not reaping any spiritual benefit from it and they should stop fasting.

[lagatta]

Ha! I was at a reception held by a Québec député (Member of the National Assembly, or MNA, in English, MLA outside Québec) who happens to be of Iranian descent. Hardcore lefty secularist (and highly cultivated) family. Much food, wine and beer served, all before sundown of course.

What bixa said about respect. I don't particularly respect the theology of any Abrahamic monotheist religion, and they all consider me a piece of shit valuable only for my (pretty-much-exhausted) baby-making capacities. But I don't think "Islamism" is Islam per se, as Judaism, Christianity and Islam have a lot more in common than different from one another.

There is a rise of violent fundamentalism in several religions, also including Hinduism. Many works have been written about the reasons for the importance of this current in Muslim lands and societies - it is certainly an extremely reactionary trend, and a dangerous one, but bigotry against any group is reactionary as well. Not an easy issue.

Kerouac, are there any people "de culture musulmane" at your workplace who openly flout the fasting obligation?

A friend of mine, of Moroccan (Muslim) descent, has been getting flack from an observant neighbour in her block of flats; the latter is annoyed because my friend owns a haram Labrador and returned in the wee hours from her daughter's wedding, both because my friend was tipsy and because her daughter had married a "non-Muslim" and neither had any intention of having him convert, as they don't believe in God either.

I remember fundamentalist Catholics who lived upstairs from me chastising me for my "sinful" lifestyle and leaving tracts in my postbox, but they'd be dead by now.

[Deleted]

Oh yes, one of my colleagues, who is head of her department, refuses to observe Ramadan, and she had a big argument about it with our Saudi boss the other day. She says she also told her husband to shove it when he tried to convince her a few years ago.

Meanwhile, in the downstairs office, they have been keeping track of all of the Muslim customers who dive into the candy bowl on the counter.

The news media have reported that 70% of the Muslims in France are now observing Ramadan, up from 60% ten years ago. As for people "of Muslim origin" but not really observant, the figure is something like 40%. The last restaurant meal I had with one of my best friends who is of Algerian origin was an Alsatian choucroute with a big hamhock in it.

[hwinpp]

I'm not so sure Islam is the biggest threat to the world. Who's selling them the technology?

Communism is worse. It wasn't just a different economic system, it was the worst social experiment in history and it still endures.

The only way to change things is to address them, negotiate, listen. That isn't going to happen with wars in Afghanistan and Iraq or treating whole countries like pariahs.

I've traveled a fair bit and lived a large part of my life in countries with a Muslim majority population and never had problems with my non- belief. I was treated as a curiosity, that's all.

I think the western countries are to blame for not integrating Muslims properly (yes, maybe even forcing the parent generation) and allowing large sections of immigrant society to become fundamentalist.

Best example to me is Turkey.
During the whole cold war they protected Europe. They had the largest standing army of all NATO countries. They had a laicist (Kemalite) society. But they weren't allowed into Europe. Now it's too late, the government and the population have drifted off and the Europeans have been very clear about never accepting them into the fold, especially Germany. Instead, they're bringing in third rate European countries at a rate that has even made the EU bureaucrats stop and think...

it's obvious that fundamentalist fanaticism knows no religious nor national boundaries.

Bravo!