Swedish couple hide their child's sex

[tillystar]

Interesting? Child Abuse? Good Idea? Mentalists?

www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

[bixaorellana]

EXTREMELY interesting. I also found the comments at the end interesting in the sense of how very threatened many respondents seemed by this couple's decision.

Really, the only thing that makes it out of the ordinary is that it never occurred to more people to try this. Why not let children have the freedom in the first few years of life to explore their personalities without the labels of "little lady" or "big boy"? When you consider how many people spend their adult lives bemoaning their feelings of not having been what their parents wanted, isn't it admirable that this couple seem to feel that whatever their kid is, it's okay by them?

[tillystar]

Yes, I found it bizarre how many people responded by shouting child abuse!

It is interesting, and I agree with what you say, in an ideal world it would be great for kids to have this. BUT I do wonder if the “experiment” is carried on long term what effect this might have on the child for good and bad, just because so much of our personality construct is from gender stereotypes (not that its right, it just is) can this be all good if this is taken away in a society where that is the norm – does that make sense?

Also, has anyone read the book The Wasp Factory? I wonder if it was based on this experiment they mention:

Both Nordenström and Pinker refer to a controversial case from 1967 when a circumcision left one of two twin brothers without a penis. Dr. John Money, who asserted that gender was learned rather than innate, convinced the parents to raise 'David' as 'Brenda' and the child had cosmetic genitalia reconstruction surgery.

She was raised as a female, with girls’ clothes, games and codes of behaviour. The parents never told Brenda the secret until she was a teenager and rebelled against femininity. She then started receiving testosterone injections and underwent another genetic reconstruction process to become David again. David Reimer denounced the experiment as a crushing failure before committing suicide at the age of 38.

[bixaorellana]

I read The Wasp Factory -- good book.

If the parents carry the experiment on too long, especially in light of the publicity it's received, it would be most unfair to the child. I think a more benevolent, less obvious way to have done this would have been simply to ask friends and family not to make an issue of the child's gender.

The real problem, I'd say, would be that the attempt to sidestep societal imprinting could create another kind of artificial self-consciousness for the child.

[Deleted]

Children always watch the parents for role models. If the father is wearing a dress and the mother is in a business suit -- that might indeed be child abuse because it would be hiding the actual set up of the world.

In the animal world, most male and female animals have different roles, and I sincerely doubt that anybody believes that animals should be 'tricked' into changing roles.

[patricklondon]

The real problem, I'd say, would be that the attempt to sidestep societal imprinting could create another kind of artificial self-consciousness for the child.

Fair point. They say the child will tell them when the time has come for it to be an issue, which sounds impeccable: but is this part of a pattern bordering on over-indulgence? And how rude will the awakening be when the second child comes along?

[hwinpp]

Experimenting on children, great.
Swedish society will probably survive.

[tigronette]

I think that they are probably right to want to fight against the role gender plays in our society and like most feminists, I agree that it is mostly a societal construct (and living in a society as gendred as French society - not necessarily as sexist as in seems on first glance but incredibly gender specific - this does sometimes drive me up the wall) and I think that a lot of people, usually men, are terrified by less emphasis on gender as there's a risk they would lose their 'place' (as in bearings as well as position) or at least a good portion of it;

However, these parents are somewhat irresponsible and have to think about the world this child is going to grow up in which isn't going to stop being gendred overnight.

My parents were hippies and like most of my peers, I was brought up to be a future militant in some hypothetical revolution and new society (which is all around us as you can see). People who have had that sort of upbringing have mixed feelings towards this. I have often spoken about this with friends who have had the same childhood and while we are happy that we can look at things differently, we're more creative and are more likely to question pre-conceived ideas, we also feel ill adapted to a lot of dynamics at work in today's world (stuff we had to learn as adults, whereas others were taught this stuff as children).

So who knows what it's going to be like for this kid...

[bixaorellana]

I suspect that Pop's parents' experiment has been blown out of proportion. My guess is that it was something meant to remain in the realm of family and close friends. The child is two and a half, an age where probably most so-called gender differences are imposed from without. All of the furor surrounding this is over the newspaper article, but the family's identity and location are concealed there, so little Pop is probably completely unaware that there is any controversy.

I don't understand how the plan to reveal the child's sex "when Pop thinks it's time" could be construed as part of a pattern of over-indulgence. The child is naturally going to ask at some point and if the parents answer naturally and casually, life would go on without a hitch.

The newspaper article is frustrating because it concentrates more on what the "experts" have to say about it than the day-to-day dynamics in that family. Susan Pinker sound more as though she is being protective of her work than objectively looking at this rather mild experiment.

Tigronette, your perceptions really add depth to this whole discussion, particularly the remark about men being afraid of losing their "place".

As far as your direct experience with "alternate" rearing ........... people who had more conventional upbringings frequently feel out of step with work dynamics, but feel as though they are at fault somehow. Of course it's not universally true, but all too often the workplace rewards the smarmy and duplicitous, while those who simply want to do their jobs are hung out to dry.

One of my very closest friends was a "red diaper" baby, whereas I was a US service brat from a pious home. As adults, our politics and perceptions are similar, but there is the same difference in personality and ways of interacting with the world at large as there would be between any other two people.

The very fact that we're all reading and responding to each other on this forum from different countries, in different age groups and socio-economic positions is microcosmic proof of human sociability and adaptability.

[spindrift]

I certainly would not take it upon myself to experiment with my child in this way.

[Deleted]

More experiments