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Post by imec on Nov 18, 2009 16:15:05 GMT
I wish this guy would just fuck off...
Michael Moore warns Canadians to stand on guard against creating two Canadas
Tue Nov 17, 12:29 PM
By The Canadian Press
TORONTO - Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore says Canadians have to stand on guard against creating two Canadas - one for the rich and one for the poor.
He says Canadians seem to be on a misguided quest to become more like Americans when it comes to health care. As a result, he tells a conference in Toronto, Canadians are straying from one of their core principles of looking out for one another.
Moore also took direct aim at the health-care bill before the U.S. Congress, saying it will enrich medical and drug companies.
He says Americans are spectacularly uninformed about Canada's health-care system, which he praised.
Moore says Canadians do not die or lose their homes because they cannot afford medical treatment, a situation millions of Americans face now and will continue to face.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2009 16:32:06 GMT
I am thoroughly confused.
Why do you object to what he is saying, Imec?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 18:36:42 GMT
I find it hard to pay attention to Michael Moore these days. He was a great agitator at one time, but I think he could be more effective now if he became serious.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 18:40:03 GMT
Meanwhile, this was one of the rare interesting threads on the Fodor's site. |
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Post by imec on Nov 18, 2009 19:17:52 GMT
I don't know or care what he is saying. I object to anyone passing off entertainment as information. His coverage of most issues is biased and misleading.
As for the healthcare issue... there is no question that there are some fantastic qualities to the Canadian healthcare system - but it is not without its flaws. At the same time, while the U.S. system is seriously flawed, it is not without its merits either.
His shot at the enrichment of medical and drug companies is nothing more than self promotion of his latest travesty on the evils of capitalism. I WANT the drug and medical companies to make lots of money - that's what fuels their R&D machine. Most of these companies are public anyway - we all can and do own them, either through direct holdings or indirectly through pension plans, retirement funds and so on.
There will always be rich and poor - even without capitalism (one only has to look at the experiments in communism in the last hundred years to see this). The poor need to be cared for - and should have access to a high degree of medical care as a basic right (as in Canada). But to suggest that those who have worked hard to achieve a higher standard of living should not be able to access additional services using their own resources is wrong in my opinion. It's akin to saying everyone deserves adequate housing - but no-one is allowed to buy themselves a bigger, nicer house... or everyone deserves adequate nutrition - but no-one is allowed to spend their own money on steak, lobster or squash flowers...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 19:28:38 GMT
Meanwhile, I would like the pharmaceutical industries of the world to be nationalized. It is an outrage that they continue selling useless items because they still make a profit or that they overcharge for the drugs that people need desperately.
Why does most medicine in the United States cost 400% more than in Europe, although it is made by the same laboratories?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 22:11:51 GMT
Time for me to be petty. I intensely dislike Michael Moore.
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Post by imec on Nov 18, 2009 22:17:24 GMT
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2009 22:22:53 GMT
I would really be interested in knowing what the merits of the totally sicko and sucko US system would be?
Everyone pays in the long run for those who cannot pay, but those charges are hidden and arbitrary, as are most of the charges incurred for medical care in the US. If you have good insurance coverage, you can bet your poor sick victimized ass that you are getting charged for things you don't need and perhaps never even got.
As for the rich and the poor, and "those who have worked hard to achieve a higher standard of living" ~~ what about everyone in between? You don't think they've worked hard, too? Why do you think universal health care would prevent anyone from choosing private doctors or hospitals?
As far as the R&D machine -- that is utter bullshit. Lots of that money goes to fund their lobbyists and other forms of their special interest. We have to ask why there is now a bewildering array of mood-altering drugs, but still no cure for cancer.
The fact is, people in the US are afraid to be without medical insurance. In order to have it, they pay whatever is charged and simply hope like hell they are financially destroyed by what is not covered if they get injured or sick. This is enforced gambling. You pay out and pay out and your only hope for reward is to get sick enough so that the insurance company is forced to give you some of that money back in the form of swollen fees to hospitals and doctors.
Those who are so terrified that they might be taxed or -- even worse -- that some of their hard-earned bucks might go to the lazy undeserving are completely overlooking what they pay out in insurance costs. No way in hell are they going to have their taxes increased to equal what they are currently paying in taxes plus insurance.
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Post by imec on Nov 18, 2009 22:34:19 GMT
I would really be interested in knowing what the merits of the totally sicko and sucko US system would be? Quality care - without waiting. what about everyone in between? You don't think they've worked hard, too? Yep, I'm one o' them. Why do you think universal health care would prevent anyone from choosing private doctors or hospitals? Because our legislation forbids it. No such thing as a private hospital here. As far as the R&D machine -- that is utter bullshit. Lots of that money goes to fund their lobbyists and other forms of their special interest. We have to ask why there is now a bewildering array of mood-altering drugs, but still no cure for cancer. Many cancers are treatable today thanks to R&D which has developed new drugs and other therapies, medical devices and diagnostic equipment and procedures. Survival rates are increasing at a dramatic pace. |
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2009 22:58:31 GMT
If there were universal health care, we'd hope the government would do more funding of medical research.
The Canadian model is not the only one for universal health care.
As far as "quality care" -- allow me to laugh. I have spent untold hours in "better" US hospitals because of my father and my husband. In both cases, I would swear on anything you name that they were exploited because of their excellent insurance coverage. The hospitals & doctors knew the money was there, and they were damned sure gonna get it. And they certainly did NOT get "quality care". I can't get started on anecdotal evidence because I'd probably wear out my keyboard and pop a blood vessel. The care is scanty, downright stupid, soul-less, and hospitals are dirty, disease and bureaucracy breeding entities.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2009 23:00:02 GMT
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Post by imec on Nov 18, 2009 23:11:53 GMT
All I'm saying is be careful and do this reform right. Universal healthcare is absolutely the way to go in my opinion - but it can be easily screwed up and then you'll have a whole new set of problems.
There are many tragic stories to be told of how the system has failed individual Canadians. I have been hearing all day about a gentleman who was released from Winnipeg's largest tertiary hospital after brain surgery with wholly inadequate discharge planning. He is now back in the hospital, blind, paralyzed, unable to speak. He protested his discharge but was ridiculed and humiliated by the medical staff... And by the way, most of these stories involve poor, uneducated patients who had no-one to advocate for their care.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 18, 2009 23:33:49 GMT
Better to have something new that everyone acknowledges needs adjusting than the miserable clanking sacred cow machinery we have right now. This is so far overdue that it's a crime.
Your story that happened in Canada is repeated across the United States on a daily basis, except that the victims are just as likely to be the middle-class or well off, educated, fully covered by insurance patients. I could tell you one very similar about my husband, a story that did not end as badly. Of course, that because I flew into a hissy fit at the frigging doctor who wanted to wait until after his Xmas vacation to deal with the patient sobbing in front of him -- the patient who was in unbearable head pain because his brain was no longer adequately supported by spinal fluid. Whoopsy! Doctor Vacation's scalpel had done a slipsy while he was operating!
One of my brother-in-laws lost his mother that way. She was in her early sixties, in good health, and had just been discharged from the hospital after a "routine procedure".
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Post by cristina on Nov 18, 2009 23:40:17 GMT
I don't think the current US healthcare system is totally without merit, but there are definitely some major flaws and reform is indeed needed, especially in ensuring the same quality of care for every single person in this country.
Maybe because I have decent health insurance, I haven't had any issues with quality care. When my husband had a heart attack and bypass surgery a few years ago, he couldn't have asked for better care, both from the doctors and surgeons as well as the hospital staff.
However I have just come across an interesting experience personally regarding insurance that I thought I would share. I recently had a medically necessary eye lift. The plastic surgeon gave me quote, before we knew whether insurance would cover it. What I didn't know was that this quote was based on a "cosmetic surgery pricelist," which assumed that insurance would not cover the surgery (since they very rarely do). It turns out that my insurance company did approve the procedure so yay for me, right?
No so fast with celebration. Now that insurance is involved, the surgeon, anesthesiologist and the hospital will all be billing the company at a much higher rate. Apparently the hospital will bill at 10 times the rate I would have had to pay had the insurance company not approved it. Of course there are contracted rates that the insurance company will not pay beyond, however I was really astounded by this practice. I haven't yet seen the results of the billing to the insurance company yet, so I have no idea how severe this is yet. My out-of-pocket is supposed to be 10% each for the hospital and anesthesiologist and 30% for the surgeon (as he is out of network). I was counting on my portion as being a percent of the original quote. Now, I am not so sure. This would most definitely be a major flaw in the system.
Back to the original post, I think Michael Moore has let his ego get out of hand. And I have yet to see anyone do a sincerely objective and balanced report of the US healthcare system. We know that there are things that work for some people, but not others, but also there is not a clear picture of what those things are. I think we have a long way to go in reforming the system, but I applaud any step to make changes as better than keeping the status quo.
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Post by cristina on Nov 18, 2009 23:46:46 GMT
Oh, and to keep this balanced, my mother lost two of her sisters to flaws in the Canadian system. Although I suspect in one case it was a bad doctor, and bad doctors can exist in any country and any system. But the other was most definitely as a result of waiting too long to operate on an aneurysm.
I had a conversation with an oncologist from Canada recently who told me there are two waiting lists in Canada. The regular one, and the waiting list to get on the regular one. He was of like minds with imec. Both the US and Canadian systems can work well, but neither is flawless. The example of my aunt with the aneurysm is a classic case of the flaws. She spent too long on that secondary waiting list.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 19, 2009 3:24:04 GMT
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Post by cristina on Nov 19, 2009 4:13:57 GMT
Bixa, I'm sorry...but I don't get the connection.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 19, 2009 4:39:39 GMT
I probably went off the rails a little with that one, Cristina, and maybe I should keep my political opinions to myself.
I was implying that people stupid enough to worship Sarah Palin deserve what they get.
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Post by cristina on Nov 19, 2009 5:00:55 GMT
No worries, as I do not even acknowledge Palin. She is milking her moment of fame. As an aside, I am not a Republican, but I had always respected McCain. He has actually been a very fine Senator in my state. I am usually pretty much far to the left, but I respected his viewpoint, as it was always fairly rational. Until the Palin pick. Now, she is just fodder for tabloids and "serious journalists at a loss for something interesting." Back on topic, I just didn't understand what you were saying. But I am sometimes slow.  |
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Post by imec on Nov 19, 2009 12:15:10 GMT
Hey, if someone cared to throw in Al Gore, we'd have a 3 bonehead thread...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2009 14:39:40 GMT
;D That was funny. Or am I just in a giggly mood.? Sorry, do carry on.  |
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 19, 2009 15:27:44 GMT
Yes, thank the good lord that the US was saved from that terrible Al Gore and we had the fabulous Bush administration instead. It made me proud to be an American.
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Post by fumobici on Nov 19, 2009 20:42:46 GMT
Gore was/is a pontificating blowhard, but GWB-Cheney were astonishingly wrong on policy to such a degree that you could pretty much do the opposite of whatever he espoused and find the correct path. I'm still not decided whether to blame World class stupidity or pure malevolent Satanic evil.
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Post by imec on Nov 19, 2009 22:11:13 GMT
...4, 5, any others?
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Post by imec on Nov 25, 2009 14:14:24 GMT
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Post by traveler63 on Nov 25, 2009 22:50:46 GMT
OK guys, I am jumping in here. First of all, I don't think the American people have a clue about what health care really costs because of the way that premiums, reasonable and customary charges, negotiated and or/allowed, deductibles, copays who's covered and who's not. I have done a lot of research on this whole subject, so for you all in countries other than the U. S. here goes. The U. S. health care is flawed beyond redemption. As of 2006 about 60% of the population has employer backed health insurance. Some of these are all employer paid, most the employees pay some portion. Generally these are HMO's(no deductibles,etc). When I was employed this was what I had and generally I didn't get any paperwork (Explanation of Benefits-EOB's). Under these plans, you have in network doctors/etc so those are the only ones you can go to. About 15-20% are uninsured, 15% on Medicare and or Medicaid and the remaining 5% or so are buying their own individual policies. U. S. Health care is not based on the country as a whole, it is based on the state you live in. So, for example, if you have Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Arizona, your policy only gives you the best coverage in Arizona because you are in network, if it is a PPO and remember if it is an HMO you can only go to the doctors that are on the list. (PPO's you can go to any doctor, no referrals are required, but you will have either a high premium low deductible( up to $5,000 per person or the reverse. Confused yet? Most people working have HMO's requiring no deductibles and most don't even get paperwork as I said before. However how the charges are set are bogus because, what I pay here in Tucson, can be drastically different than say Scottsdale. So, if you fall and break you leg or have a heart attack in California. Well, you are screwed. If you have an HMO you a double screwed because the doctor's aren't on the list. So, your coverage will be on different percentage, probably 65%-70% insurance company paid, and the rest is on you. Are you getting the picture now? Reasonable and customary is a term to tell you what the average billing would be. This is a formula on what the doctor, hospital charges are in your area. So, if I have a heart attack in Tucson, the charges are based on a survey done for my area. The company, the only company that does this is called Ingenix which is owned by United Healthcare Insurance Company and has been suec by the New York AG for to stop using Ingenix databases by United Health Care. I could go on and on, and if I do, then I am going to get madder and madder. I will tell you my personal story. I retired early in 2006 at the age of 60. I was not old enough for Medicare so I extended my employer's insurance, into Cobra which gave me 18 months before I had to find individual coverage for Mr.T63 and myself. He would turn 65 in 2008. Well, between the Cobra and finding individual coverage I had some medical problems and he had his heart event. In mid 2007 we started looking for coverage and guess what?  No insurance company in the state would even talk to us about coverage. One did and sent the 15 page application, with instructions to go back 15 years and give them every medical issue that each one of us had. (By the way if you forget anything and they cover they can terminate your policy). So, we had one other alternative; it is called the Heath and Portability Policy of 1996, passed by Congress and basically said, Insurance companies cannot deny you coverage because of pre-existing conditions however they can have "special" policies which once you sign up for you can't opt out, there is no cap on the premiums. So, in 2008 until July, we were paying $1548.00/mo $2500 deductible, $500.00 deductible for prescriptions per person. Mr. T63 danced a jig in July 2008 when he was eligible for Medicare. However, I don't get there until 2011. In 2008, we paid $21,000 in premiums, copays, deductibles. I made my $2500 in December 2008, insurance paid $456.00. In 2009, at$1038/mo we will have paid $22,000 (I am over $1,000 away from deductible)and we figure for 2010 we will around $24,000 and for 2011 about half of 2010. The grand total is around $60,000 for insurance. I am 1 of only 79 people in the state that has this policy, so if people start dropping out, the company could double or triple my premium and I have no where to go. Hopefully this will show you how absolutely horrible the whole scenario is. I could easily cancel my insurance, go on public assistance and get better healthcare than I am getting now for the $60,000. By the way Imec, my Crestor is $204.91 for a 60 day supply before my deductible kicks in. I am tired of paying for all the R & D when I know that I could walk across the border north or south and get my prescription for a hell of a lot less. Insurance Companies in this country are not competitive, they all set their premiums within a few dollars of each other, therefore there is no competition. Fully 30% or more of the premiums go directly into the pockets not to lowering premiums and or increasing health care. They will deny coverage for anything. The doctors are paid on the number of patients they see not the quality of care. Until these two things are rectified premiums will continue to go up. Some people say there will be rationing, we already have it. As to not waiting to see a doctor, that is a myth. It takes at least 6 months to see a primary care physician 1 year for a dermatologist, at least 6 months for a cardiologist and that is just here in Tucson. Sorry this is so long hope you all read it. I have just touched on the surface of what is going on. Universal health care or at least a public option is mandatory in my opinion. |
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Post by lola on Nov 25, 2009 23:14:17 GMT
I must differ with "no waiting" for US healthcare.
I called my daughter's pediatrician in early Oct. because of a potentially significant concern, was told that mid January was the best they could do.
Getting an appointment with a certain specialist for another family member took almost a year to clear through the insurance company. The physician, one of two in our city with expertise in the disease, notified us the day before long-awaited appointment that he would not see her until the insurance company sent the proper forms.
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Post by bixaorellana on Nov 26, 2009 0:17:12 GMT
Traveler63 ~~ have I told you lately that I love you?
THANK YOU for point out clearly and succinctly what tragically mis-named "health care" costs in the US.
If anyone doubts T63's word, phone up any insurer in the United States and endure some bored and snotty young person droning meaningless insider terms into your ear. Well, it hardly matters if you understand or not, as you're over a barrel either way.
And thank you, Lola, for busting the myth that people in the US get good care because they pay for it. Ha ha ha and ha.
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Post by traveler63 on Nov 26, 2009 0:55:44 GMT
Thanks Bixa. As an aside I went to one of the townhall meetings and it was 1000 percent worse than anything anyone has seen on TV. What is so pathetic is the people who are shouting no government in my health care, no socialist medicine are on MEDICARE!!!! $96/mo premiums, backed by the government!!!!. Plus, fully 95% of the people attending don't even understand how Congress puts a bill out and how it becomes law, or even how Social Security is funded. All these people do is play from a script that they get from the political pundits and we know who they are, one wrote a book ; How to talk to Idiots. He should have a conversation with himself.
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No insurance company in the state would even talk to us about coverage. One did and sent the 15 page application, with instructions to go back 15 years and give them every medical issue that each one of us had. (By the way if you forget anything and they cover they can terminate your policy). So, we had one other alternative; it is called the Heath and Portability Policy of 1996, passed by Congress and basically said, Insurance companies cannot deny you coverage because of pre-existing conditions however they can have "special" policies which once you sign up for you can't opt out, there is no cap on the premiums. So, in 2008 until July, we were paying $1548.00/mo $2500 deductible, $500.00 deductible for prescriptions per person. Mr. T63 danced a jig in July 2008 when he was eligible for Medicare. However, I don't get there until 2011. In 2008, we paid $21,000 in premiums, copays, deductibles. I made my $2500 in December 2008, insurance paid $456.00. In 2009, at$1038/mo we will have paid $22,000 (I am over $1,000 away from deductible)and we figure for 2010 we will around $24,000 and for 2011 about half of 2010. The grand total is around $60,000 for insurance. I am 1 of only 79 people in the state that has this policy, so if people start dropping out, the company could double or triple my premium and I have no where to go.