No to more minarets in Switzerland

[Deleted]

Today's Swiss 'votation' has decided that no more Muslim minarets may be built in Switzerland. 24 of the 26 cantons voted against minarets, and the overall vote was about 60% against the minarets.

The referendum was put on the ballot by an extremist right wing party, and the government was completely against the measure.

I am sorry to say that I am not really surprised, and probably the result would have been quite similar in a number of the other countries of Europe if such a referendum took place.

[Deleted]

I forgot to mention that there is a grand total of 4 minarets in Switzerland at the moment.

[bixaorellana]

I could understand it in an area where a historical look was being preserved, but a blanket ban for the whole country seems pretty repressive.

[Deleted]

I heard this this a.m. on NPR and was truly shocked. But,I'm the first to confess I don't know much about the politics of these matters.

[Deleted]

Here is a brief CBC article about the vote.

[fumobici]

Xenophobia is such an easily exploitable and widespread emotion in people who aren't happy for whatever reason I'm frankly pleasantly surprised how little mainstream Western politicians have taken advantage of it in the name of populism.

I'm also very glad I live somewhere where today this sort of bigotry would probably never be tolerated.

[lagatta]

Ironic, isn't it, that Calvin was about at the top of the heap among the life-hating variants of Abrahamic monotheisms. Cripes, under his theocratic rule in Geneva people were flogged for SMILING!

My Swiss friends, who have no love for any religious fundamentalism (and it sort of goes without saying, any violence committed in the name of religious belief) are aghast.

Minarets were designed for the call to prayer, just as steeples were. Just so we have the right not to pray if we don't want do, why should they bother us?

And like some steeples, some minarets are very beautiful, and inspire even non-believers. Taj Mahal anyone? The Blue Mosque?

Fortunately this nutty resolution has little chance of becoming law, as it seems all cantons would have to approve it.

[Deleted]

Most mosques in France are built without minarets, but there is no law against it. The Grand Mosque of Paris does not have a minaret.

The Grand Mosque of Lyon (built by Saudi Arabia in 1994) has a minaret that might be just about anything...

[Deleted]

Actually, I was reading today that the little tower of the Paris mosque is technically considered to be a minaret, but it was made so small specifically not to dominate the neighborhood.

[lagatta]

yes, I was surprised about what you said as that little square tower is typical of many Maghrebi mosques - though obviously many are taller.

By the way I've also seen churches in Southern Italy with similar towers.

[fumobici]

Some of those small churches may have been chiese saracene at one time. The little church in the valley close to my father's house is Catholic of course now but there are still pagan runes visible on some of the interior stones.

[hwinpp]

I think the Swiss have overreacted a bit there.

The German media is having a field day. They, and funnily enough the CDU (our conservative party) are the only ones against plebiscites, 'votations', on a federal level.

If the Swiss government had seriously been against the ban why didn't they put more money into countering it instead of being 'shocked (and awed apparently)'.

Because that's what most of these 'votations' are decided by. Finances.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2009 23:56:57 GMT lagatta said:

yes, I was surprised about what you said as that little square tower is typical of many Maghrebi mosques - though obviously many are taller.

I always think of it not having a minaret, because I remember reading that when it was under construction in the 1920's, they wanted a much taller minaret, but the zoning laws prevented it from sticking out above the neighborhood.

As a footnote, it was built in homage to the more than 100,000 Muslim troops who died during WW1 in the French army.

[cristina]

It would seem that Switzerland is not alone. Some parts of Northern Italy seem to have similar thoughts...

[Deleted]

In the various discussions since the referendum, most of the European countries have unfortunately realized that the ruling class has a totally different view of this issue from the working classes.

[bazfaz]

I wonder - truly I have no idea - whether Saudi Arabia which financed the Lyon mosque allows christian churches to be built.

[cristina]

Baz, Saudi Arabia is likely the most intolerant country when it comes to religious freedom. There are no Christian churches permitted, nor Christian religious gatherings, no wearing of crucifixes etc.

The Christian population has really grown there and I remember talks being held between the Vatican and Saudi Arabia early last year. I haven't heard if anything ever came out of it, however.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2009 21:55:44 GMT bazfaz said:

I wonder - truly I have no idea - whether Saudi Arabia which financed the Lyon mosque allows christian churches to be built.

I know the official Saudi policy about this. Saudi Arabia says that no edifice for another religion may be built on its soil because "the entire country is a mosque" -- which also explains why the possession of a Bible or other infidel literature is forbidden on this sacred soil.

One of the first things that came to my mind when this votation was announced was the result that any similar vote would have had in the Muslim countries. Not a pretty sight.

[hwinpp]

One of the first things that came to my mind when this votation was announced was the result that any similar vote would have had in the Muslim countries. Not a pretty sight.

Bravo. Exactly.

They should not pretend they didn't expect exactly this result. You'd probably get it in every European country.

[bjd]

I was in Mostar, Bosnia three years ago. After all the damage of the 1990s, I was struck by the fact that civic buildings that had been rebuilt had plaques on them saying "a gift from the people of Italy" or the Netherlands or wherever. The Japanese had funded the buses. All the mosques had been rebuilt and had plaques on them from Qatar, Kuwait or other Gulf countries. As though the only places worth rebuilding were mosques and not public buildings like schools.

[bixaorellana]

Regardless of what the policies of a given country might be, if Switzerland extends the right to practice religion, it shouldn't deny that right to a given religion.

It's a tricky business, though. The right to religious freedom is considered a hallmark of enlightened countries. However, certain concessions extended to religion, such as the exemption from taxation in the US, are clearly unconstitutional and unfair. An edifice for religious use may be considered part of the history or culture of a place, thus worth preserving, while the building of a contemporary house of worship for an "alien" religion seems to make many people uneasy.

From the outside, it would seem that Switzerland is discriminating against a particular religion, some of whose adherents must be Swiss citizens.

[Deleted]

It is true that it is not to the honor of the occidental countries to feel that they have the right to discriminate the same way that their values are discriminated against elsewhere.

That would be the same as if the EU decided to accept application of the death penalty in Europe for convicted criminals with U.S., Iranian, Chinese or Saudi nationality (among others).

[tillystar]

They should not pretend they didn't expect exactly this result. You'd probably get it in every European country.

I do wonder what would happen if they put it to the vote here, I really don't know. I like to think it wouldn't win, but sometimes I am naive about these things and I forget there is a big part of the UK outside London.

Thankfully it couldn't happen as such a ban would be illegal here.

[bjd]

Well, if you read the article in Kerouac's link, the Swiss are not forbidding Muslims from practicing their religion. They don't want any more minarets, of which there are currently 4 and there are 150 mosques. The article also says that only 13% of the Muslim population practices their religion.

The minarets are seen as an outward expression of the religion, but if there are 146 (soon to be 145) mosques without one, obviously the religion itself can be practiced.

[bixaorellana]

There is an aesthetic point that should be made about minarets or any tall structure, beyond whether or not it fits with existing architecture. That is, how much of the skyline is it hogging?

Years ago I spent some time in Boulder, Colorado, which is beautifully situated right at the foothills of the Rockies. There was one tall building, a university dorm, I believe. Apparently the townspeople were so appalled by how that building blocked and uglied the view that all buildings over three (?) stories were banned. I wonder if that is still true. Photo of Boulder:

[tillystar]

Well, if you read the article in Kerouac's link, the Swiss are not forbidding Muslims from practicing their religion. They don't want any more minarets, of which there are currently 4 and there are 150 mosques. The article also says that only 13% of the Muslim population practices their religion.

The minarets are seen as an outward expression of the religion, but if there are 146 (soon to be 145) mosques without one, obviously the religion itself can be practiced.

Yes but from my own perspective (and from a legal persective in the UK) it is still discriminating against one religion - why not ban all non-traditional buildings, or all religious buildings over a certain height? If there are currently ony four minarets it seems to me to be even worse, simply a statement about the feeling towards islam.

[fumobici]

Switzerland is a very conservative and insular culture so it is hardly surprising they- and particularly some of the more backward, redneck cantons like the Appenzells- would easily fall prey to narrow minded xenophobia.



This image from the initiative's website ( www.minareti.ch/ ) spells out the agenda pretty clearly I think. Those minarets are depicted as weapons- black missiles of menace with a muslim boogeyman waiting to attack.

As I said before xenophobia is such an easily exploitable emotion among people with less than cosmopolitan world views I'm surprised that politicians don't cynically stoop to using it to stir up fear more often and manipulate the resulting ruckus to their advantage.

[patricklondon]

As I understand it, the whole thing was promoted from the outset as explicitly intended to tell Muslims not to get above themselves (the imagery of red, white and black may not be entirely an accident, either: it is at best the visual equivalent of cloth-eared). Sarkozy's latest remarks take the same line - and that's what's so alarming.