Why do they behave like this?

[auntieannie]

Take a very classic case of a male seeking revenge for his wife leaving him.
He seduces as many women(for simplification, I won't go into all the possibilities there) as possible and once they are hooked, he looks for another prey, deceiving them further.

Now, I am not questioning this behaviour, even though I don't approve of it. (This could be another debate?)

What I am questioning is the behaviour of his victims.

In the case I am familiar with, they mostly know the score. They know he's not to be trusted, they know his behaviour is shifty to say the least.
The ladies still believe they know better than the others, that they understand him better, that they love him better.
Now, ok, at the beginning of the relationship, I can totally understand, but once all is said and done... why do none of them ever speak up to warn the others, future victims? Once they realise the full extent of his misbehaviour, they just seem to fade away. Not one ever writes a cautionary tale about the bloke.

Is is cowardice, is it selfishness, is it because they are ashamed they allowed him to treat them like that? Is it because they cannot believe anyone else could be as stupid as they have just been?

Let me know your thoughts, it IS troubling me greatly.

[bjd]

Not one ever writes a cautionary tale about the bloke.

Your implication is that they all know each other. And where would they write this information? On Facebook? On a wall at the local pub?

[auntieannie]

The case I know about happened on an online galaxy far far away and a long time ago.

Hence why they would write... and more or less know each other.

[spindrift]

Yes, it puzzles me too. Some, however, will not sit on the fence. They will stand up and be counted

Some ladies who know the score just imagine they'll enjoy the relationship for fun reasons...and why not? There's no question of 'love' being involved.

[Deleted]

I think shame keeps lots of people quiet, no matter what sort of shame. A lot of people won't even mention that they've been shortchanged at the store, simply because they're embarrassed not to have noticed it immediately.

[auntieannie]

Jan 24, 2010 13:52:48 GMT spindrift said:

Y
Some ladies who know the score just imagine they'll enjoy the relationship for fun reasons...and why not? There's no question of 'love' being involved.

But don't they forget that although there are months of fun to be had, when all is said and done, the landing back into reality can be a bit rough?

I never shied away from a sexual (i.e. not involving feelings of love) relationship but in an ideal world, when someone wants sex, they just say it and many women will agree to a no strings attached relationship.
So why would a sane woman seeking fun put up with all the crappy game play of feelings and rules to follow - the assorted paraphernalia of control. Why put up with control in an alleged "free" relationship?

[spindrift]

I think that most women are not seeking fun; they want commitment. These would put up with control and rules. As far as I can see the majority of women are desperate for the trappings of home and family.

[auntieannie]

How sad!

[auntieannie]

Hum... What about the women who don't mind a free relationship and believe they are actually experiencing one in the above situation?

[Deleted]

annie, truth is there are a lot of men who will use women like that out there. And equally as many women who think so little of themselves that they will knowingly allow themselves to be used in this way.

I also find it hard to understand, but messed up people with messed up lives and messed up attitudes towards the opposite sex and their own relationships with them have always been round and probably always will be around.

I don't think it's up to the past rejects to inform the future rejects of this man. Why some woman are drawn to abusive men such as this are a mystery to me, and kind of sad.

It irritates me no end that some women allow themselves to be treated like this. I believe that in the end a man will treat you as you expect him to. And if you don't think much of yourselve to begin with, he won't either.

Married men looking for affairs, men on the rebound, men just looking for sex etc. etc. should signal a big red flag. Maybe I'm a bit too conservative, or old fashioned but the only way I would ever go deeper into a relationship with a man is for love, and no other reason.

Keep life simple, that's my motto.

[spindrift]

Annie - feelings are always a part of the human condition regardless of one's mindset during any sort of relationship. If one were in control of one's feelings then one would be truly 'enlightened' and 'realized'....

It's quite a lot that someone will be mindful enough to reflect on one's attitude and state of mind and be the observer of one's own feelings and we aware of what's going on in one's mind - whether it's a desirable state or not.

I've struggled for many years to achieve a degree of non-attachment to everything ...but sadly I'm not there yet. it's a constant battle to strive against one's human nature which craves anything and everything...

It's quite something to recognise all this

And what about the majority who never stop to consider the above? or that it's even possible?

[Deleted]

I have had two female friends who were extremely interested in casual sex and got as much of it as they could. I never slept with either of them, because I am one of those rare men who believes in commitment.

Both of them died before the age of 50.

[bixaorellana]

I don't see how this is an either/or situation. So far, I think I agree most with Kerouac's assessment that embarrassment might keep someone from announcing how she'd been had. But there is more to it than that, wouldn't you all agree? For one thing, even if a person knows or intuits that the new sex &/or love interest is a serial user of others, her sense of individuality is telling her that either it will be different this time, or that forewarned is forearmed, so she is in no danger of falling for the Lothario's tricks.

Also, and I assume this goes for both sexes, what starts out as sport-fucking can easily turn to real affection, at which point all the lines are blurred. And if the rules going in were that it was all for fun, either party who feels affection may want to play it cool and not say anything, plus may well believe the affection is returned.

One reason that a person who was taken in by the hit&run lover may not say anything to the next victim is out of politeness. The new person may react with hostility, the discarded person may not know the fresh meat well enough to approach her, friends may caution against saying anything, and on & on.

It's odd how we're all going with the assumption that the insincere lover is always a man. Literature is full of women who only planned to dally and left broken hearts in their wakes. Should the hard-hearted Hannahs be included in this discussion?

That brings me to one more thing: do you all think that a woman's male friends or her female friends are more likely to warn her that the new boyfriend is no good? (or vice-versa, if we're talking about mean evil women)

Kerouac, are you saying those women died young because of promiscuity?

[lagatta]

We have the hard-hearted Hannahs in another discussion. I'm so happy I remembered those lyrics in the thread about "bitches". (Please, sweet female dogs, this is not about you).

spindrift, I'm not interested in "non-attachment" to other living beings, although it is painful when they die, and might be painful when I die if I have time to think about them beforehand. I do like the idea of reducing attachment to "stuff".

I never wanted children and if I could have a profound relationship with someone while retaining my own (small) space, I'd prefer that. I don't think we can conflate the desire for "home and family" with the desire for a close and meaningful human relationship.

My problem isn't a shithead; it is a man who was married for at least 25 years if not 30, who on a certain level loves me very much and on another is too fucking ... I don't know what... cowardly? - he isn't a coward - perhaps set in his ways - to really commit to a new relationship in the second half of life. I practically want to tell him to shit or get off the pot, but I am fond of him and we always enjoy each other's company immensely when we meet up, and obviously at my age I'm very unlikely to meet anyone else, as (grumble grumble) most of them want 20-somethings to feel young again. (He isn't like that at all).

Grumble grumble. Back to being a catlady and a faghag for a distraught young gay male friend (sweetie though).

Nice distraction from worrying about people in Haiti ... who have far more serious problems.

[spaceneedle]

Unfortunately there are a lot of women that won't blink an eye at undermining their fellow women.

The case of one Mr. John Edwards and his mistress come to mind.....

[Deleted]

I don't think that the word is cowardly, lagatta. Definitely set in his ways ("vieux crouton") and not wanting his routine permanently disrupted.

Don't ask me how I know that.

[auntieannie]

bixabella, just pointing out that for the ease of the discussion I was only talking about a male player ... Would the discussion be much different about a female player?

[Deleted]

annie, you ask 'why do they behave like this?' do you mean the man then? The man behaves in that way because he can and because it helps him, like you said 'get revenge' on his wife, in his own twisted way. Is it right? no. But that's just how it is sometimes. And it works both ways, women do the same thing.

Or are you asking why do women 'behave behave like this'? Maybe because they want to? Especially if they are already aware of how he is. The problem arises when an innocent, who is maybe in it for the real thing, gets caught up in such a mess.

The thing is it's always easy to see the negatives and unkind ways of others, but not in ourselves. I ask myself, have I ever been the 'heart-hearted Hannah'? and the answer is, yes, and many times. Maybe I haven't always used men for sex, (that's not really my thing), but yeah, sure I've used men in other ways, to get what I want, and if that has involved sex at some point, I've used that to. (Oh God, I sound bad now).

And most of the time, I haven't thought twice about it or the impression I have left or what he might have thought of me or how he might have been hurt by it. And I don't think many people do, the only time they realy *think* about hurt feelings is when they themselves are hurt, but mostly, not when they are hurting others. In my defence, I have to say, I've grown more of a conscience over the years, or have at least tried to.

I've found the easiest way to get out of a relationship (once you've got what you want), is to do the fade. In the past I've tried to explain things a bit too much and it resulted in him getting even more hurt. Then again there is alway the 'act like a 'psycho' to put him off you or make him hate you in some way, so he feels he's good about being well rid of you. But that all takes a bit too much effort and doesn't alway work.

Nowadays, I just like to keep life simple, I have no need for it to be any other way. Have I said too much (again)?


T

[Jazz]

Dunno Lagatta, I don't think that 'cowardly' is too far off the mark, although perhaps a bit harsh. How about fearful and a need to feel safe?

I think that men and women who are serial seducers do not want to deal with reality. He may have been badly hurt and is shut down. His behavior of going from one to the next is lazy and ultimately the most insulting way to treat another person, denying their individuality. 'You' are like 'all the others'. He keeps his women in a box of preconceived ideas. His world is carefully controlled. He may be totally unaware of what he is doing. However, life is short and this is cheating both himself and the women. I have been both the victim and the serial seducer, for ten years. In my case I never allowed it to even go as far as the physical. It wasn't until much later that I became conscious of what I was doing.

I think that warning the current victim isn't a good idea. Most of us want to feel unique and it is very human to feel that you 'understand him' and that you are 'somehow different'. Often warning someone only creates a very stubborn defense of him and keeps the person in the relationship much longer. Sometimes, rarely, she really is 'the one'. We need to experience life for ourselves and not accept another's translation. This can hurt, but you grow.

For some reason, this makes me think of a quotation that has brought me through many crises,

'That night, however, for the first time since my downfall, brought back the unrelenting radience of my own life...and made me recognize chance as destiny once more, and see the ruins of my being as fragments of the divine.', Hermann Hesse, Steppenwolf.

[Deleted]

I like the way you put things, Jazz. That was well explained.

I have a male friend, (who is just a friend), who has had many sex partners (perhaps hundreds, he can't remember the total). Anyway, he told me about how some years back, when sharing an apartment with other male friends, they had a bet on who could sleep with the most women in a three month period. He said he stopped at number 42, because he fell in love with her. For some reason that made me smile.

[spindrift]

what starts out as sport-fucking can easily turn to real affection, at which point all the lines are blurred.

Bixa - that's it in one!

[spindrift]

But the real dilemma concerns a person about to be caught up in the web of deceit who is herself vulnerable and wounded.....what to do? she will be led into tremendous suffering and perhaps this could be prevented?

[bixaorellana]

Jan 25, 2010 13:33:03 GMT auntieannie said:

bixabella, just pointing out that for the ease of the discussion I was only talking about a male player ...

Of course, sweetie -- yes, that does make the most sense. This discussion is complicated enough without widening the focus! (sorry!)

Jan 24, 2010 17:28:18 GMT spindrift said:

I've struggled for many years to achieve a degree of non-attachment to everything ...but sadly I'm not there yet. it's a constant battle to strive against one's human nature which craves anything and everything..

Jan 25, 2010 2:07:03 GMT lagatta said:

spindrift, I'm not interested in "non-attachment" to other living beings, although it is painful when they die, and might be painful when I die if I have time to think about them beforehand.

Not to speak for Spindrift, but I think I understand what she means. If we were truly enlightened, to the point that we were always able to gaze compassionately on the actions of others rather than reacting emotionally to them, it would be non-attachment.

Jan 25, 2010 16:15:52 GMT Jazz said:

Dunno Lagatta, I don't think that 'cowardly' is too far off the mark, although perhaps a bit harsh. How about fearful and a need to feel safe?

I think that men and women who are serial seducers do not want to deal with reality.

Um, your explanation is kinder, but could be thought to amount to the same thing, Jazz. But, yes -- that's a great insight about these people not dealing with reality, probably to the point that they have long buried any uncomfortable self-knowledge. And your remark about denying the other person's individuality -- brilliant! It almost makes one feel sorry for the callous users, when we consider what part of the human experience they're denying themselves.

Jan 25, 2010 16:15:52 GMT Jazz said:

I think that warning the current victim isn't a good idea. Most of us want to feel unique and it is very human to feel that you 'understand him' and that you are 'somehow different'. Often warning someone only creates a very stubborn defense of him and keeps the person in the relationship much longer. Sometimes, rarely, she really is 'the one'. We need to experience life for ourselves and not accept another's translation.

Whew -- yeah. As you see from what I wrote earlier, I definitely agree with the first part of your statement quoted here, but bingo on the "stubborn defense"! That is such a classic human response, rather noble in its way, but also rather blind in the impulse to prove oneself in the right.

[spindrift]

Bixa - that's exactly what I meant. You put it so well.

[Deleted]

I think that we should all now take a vow of chastity.

[spindrift]

You first.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2010 18:23:24 GMT kerouac2 said:

I think that we should all now take a vow of chastity.

No friggin' way!

[lagatta]

Oh, I understand that Buddhist concept. And reject it.

[spindrift]

I believe that practising non-attachment, quelling cravings of any sort, can eventually lead to the end of suffering..... that's why I try it. I can't think of anything else that would end the 'suffering'/anxieties, etc.

[Deleted]

I always get mixed up in this Buddhist suffering stuff. Life is endless suffering but you should accept it and yet live a life to end suffering.