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Post by lagatta on Dec 12, 2010 14:59:32 GMT
myrt, imagine your experience in Paris, with a friend who lives in an outlying suburb and spent HOURS trying to find a parking spot.
I certainly have no need whatsoever of a car, but I think Montréal's development is somewhat different from Toronto's, not only because we are an older city but also because we are an island. There is hideous sprawl outside the island now, while it had always been quite limited here. There is a major suburb north of Montréal, Laval, which did have some postwar style sprawl (sprawl is much worse nowadays) but now the métro goes there, and densification is ongoing around all the métro stations.
There is a popular carshare scheme here, CommunAuto. I know quite a few people who have got rid of their car and signed up with CommunAuto when they need a car for travel to rural areas, major shopping or errands etc. Naturally IKEA is a popular CommunAuto destination...
It is also a matter of political will; all the municipal parties at least give lip service to promoting less-polluting transport modes here - alas that doesn't seem to be the case in Toronto now. We have improved accessibility to public transport, at least the buses (low floor, kneeling for boarding, reserved spaces for wheelchairs and baby strollers etc). Sadly most of the métro stations are not accessible. The new ones in Laval all are, and some of the more important Montréal ones have been retrofitted with escalators. Unfortunately Jean-Talon near here (where two lines meet) is not among them yet.
I certainly consider daily life, in whatever continent, but a lot of the problem has been caused by woefully bad planning. Much of Italy is dreadful in this respect, though it is not a huge country and certainly not a "new" one.
Someone I know here, Mary Soderstrom, has written extensively on how to favour green and walkable cities, drawing upon the famous Torontonian Jane Jacobs but many other urbanists as well. The challenge, of course, is how to densify to ensure walkability while also ensuring a green and pleasant environment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 15:53:15 GMT
One of the reasons for 'bad' planning is conflicting interests. Countries whose ruling class is totally merged with big industry (petroleum, automobile construction, metallurgy...) is unlikely to take anything more than symbolic measures for public transportation -- because they don't want it to work.
There is also the problem of 'big government' and taxpayers. Public transportation should not need to make a profit, but all of the people sitting in their cars do not want to pay taxes that benefit other people. Their view of the 'common good' is very narrow.
In rural (and urban) areas in France, there are a lot of shopping transportation services for the elderly and other non-drivers, and these are either free or require a symbolic fee (such as the 3€ I pay to have my mother transported anywhere in Paris in a special vehicle). I have never heard a single person complain of the cost to taxpayers, because public and social transportation is considered to be a right, from which we will all benefit sooner or later if we live long enough.
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Post by lagatta on Dec 12, 2010 16:30:12 GMT
I'm interested in the shopping/errand transport services in rural and village France, if you have any articles about those. We also have disabled/frail elderly transport, which costs the same as a normal métro or bus passage.
In general what you say about corporate interests is true, but Germany has a world-famous metallurgy industry, and in general public transport is very good there. I'm wondering if modern, more "knowledge-based" industrial sectors (though of course any production requires knowledge) might have a somewhat different outlook than the older heavy industries?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 16:41:49 GMT
I think Germany and Europe in general have a better grasp of the common good. And the metallurgy industry builds subways, trains, buses, etc., not just cars.
I'll see if I can come up with something about the rural transport services. If they were on the departmental level, with 100 départements in France, that would mean 100 different systems. But the systems are more local than that, going down to the canton.
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Post by Kimby on Dec 22, 2010 15:56:02 GMT
No decline in auto use here. We are 4.5 miles from the nearest place to buy milk or bread, and the road into town is narrow and winding with no shoulders for bicycles and a 45mph speed limit. Plus we are 500 feet in elevation above town, so even if we are willing to risk our lives by biking to town, we will wear ourselves out getting home.
BUT, the grassroots effort to get a pedestrian-bicycle trail - off the road, but parallel to it - is nearing fruition. Construction of the first 2 mile stretch will take place in 2012, if the world doesn't end first. The upper stretch will be sometime after 2015. I hope I am still able to ride a bike when it is completed!
There is no bus service here, either, but once the bike trail is completed, the bus line will probably create a bus stop that we can bike to, and the buses have bike racks on them, so we can use the bike at our destination too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 21:05:00 GMT
Better than nothing!
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Post by Kimby on Dec 22, 2010 21:34:24 GMT
Still hard to bring home a weeks' worth of groceries on a bike...and winter means they'll all be frozen when you get home, too. Including the rider!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 7:10:45 GMT
Automobile use in Paris has declined 25% since 2001, so it looks like the city is on the right track.
As of this week, the Left Bank Expressway has been closed permanently to create more pedestrian and cultural areas. The project will be completed very rapidly because.... there are municipal elections next year.
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Post by lagatta on Feb 6, 2013 14:28:28 GMT
Great news. I'm not sure it will be a bad thing for those taxi drivers who are speaking - A drop in the use of private cars in the central city could see more people opting to use a taxi.
Fortunate that this is accompanied by more tramlines around the edges of Paris and in and between the suburbs, as so many people have such long commutes every day.
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Post by kerouac2 on Oct 23, 2017 13:21:22 GMT
Today 12 cities around the world announced their official intention to ban vehicles using fossil fuels by 2030: Paris, London, Barcelona, Quito, Vancouver, Mexico City, Copenhagen, Cape Town, Seattle, Los Angeles, Auckland and Milan. Details ---> CLICK
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Post by lagatta on Oct 23, 2017 13:49:50 GMT
Interesting. If Projet Montréal wins the upcoming municipal elections, Montréal could join in as well. But there is still the problem of the sprawl ringing the city.
Reading over this thread from several years ago, I will mention that Jean-Talon and Rosemont métro stations now have lifts to ensure accessibility. Unfortunately the STM decided NOT to install them at Beaubien métro in-between, although there are TWO HLMs for elderly people on opposite sides of that station, and many residents have mobility problems.
I don't think personal self-driving cars are a good transport solution as they do nothing to relieve congestion, but perhaps self-driving mini-buses could be a transport solution for rural areas and smaller towns and cities?
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Post by bixaorellana on Oct 23, 2017 15:52:10 GMT
That is really excellent news! I'm wondering how much pressure can be brought to bear on other cities -- cities less large and important than those signing the commitment, but still major sources of pollution by vehicles.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 2, 2019 19:14:43 GMT
Sales of diesel automobiles declined in France from more than 75% just a few years ago to 39% in 2018. In any case, Paris is holding steady on its plan to ban diesel vehicles starting January 1, 2025.
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Post by Kimby on Jan 2, 2019 22:44:46 GMT
Missoula Montana has instituted a “road diet” on its major thoroughfare, West Broadway. A 4-lane major arterial has been reduced to 2 lanes, with a shared left-turning lane in the middle. Drivers hate it, but it has allowed wider bike lanes and has made crossing the street much safer for pedestrians. The next big driver-antagonizing project is to take two one-way streets, 5th and 6th streets, down from two lanes each to one lane each plus a full dedicated bike lane. Again traffic planners think it’s a great idea and drivers are vocally against it. Since it only involves a couple thousand dollars worth of paint and new signs, it won’t cost much to give it a try. There was a similar pair of one way streets with full lanes for bicycles in Santa Barbara, CA, when we lived there in the 80’s, and it was great to have that full lane to bike downtown and back. Wonder if it’s been reconverted to traffic lanes with increasing population in the intervening years.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 3, 2019 4:50:21 GMT
Yes, for some reason a lot of drivers used to think that the road was all theirs. Paris has been shrinking streets for years and drivers bitch about it every time. Right now they are attacked some of the main thoroughfares of the city such as rue de Rivoli (losing one lane) and the Champs Elysées (losing two lanes).
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Post by lagatta on Jan 3, 2019 13:58:05 GMT
Have those become reserved bus lanes, cycle lanes, or wider and prettier sidewalks (with more trees?)There are always a lot of pedestrians on rue de Rivoli; seems they could benefit from more space and some greenery.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 3, 2019 14:19:52 GMT
The new two way cycle lane is in addition to the bus lane. They may have widened the sidewalk on one side just a bit, but I'm not sure. I'll try to remember to look the next time I'm in that area. It's funny how the dedicated bus lanes seem so normal now, but they were revolutionary when they first started appearing, with the usual outcry from the driving public.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 3, 2019 15:13:40 GMT
And yet they make perfect sense. You can seat many times more bus passengers than car drivers and passengers in a given space. Often Parisian buses moved no faster than pedestrians, if that, meaning only seniors and other people unable to walk a long way seemed to take them.
Are there any separated (Dutch-style) cycle lanes in Paris now?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 3, 2019 15:30:13 GMT
There are all sorts -- separated, unseparated, sharing the bus lane, and also you can ride contraflow in most one way streets. As you know, the constraints of an old city's architectural layout require quite a bit of creativity to give bicycles their due.
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Post by bjd on Jan 3, 2019 16:19:35 GMT
Yes, for some reason a lot of drivers used to think that the road was all theirs. We had this "discussion" with my cousin's son in Toronto. He drives a pick-up truck and absolutely believes bicycles have no right to be on the roads. When we mentioned that cyclists pay taxes to the city as well, he remained adamantly opposed. Of course, he's not too bright in other ways too.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 3, 2019 20:32:33 GMT
Don't worry; I won't shoot him. Not worth the trouble. He must like the Ford family.
Of course, I also know people who drive pick-up trucks for their work and also ride bicycles...
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Post by bjd on Jan 4, 2019 6:01:12 GMT
I admit his pickup truck is his work car, but he is the type to drive one anyway. He is young but I don't think he rides a bike -- ever.
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Post by mossie on Jan 4, 2019 15:48:37 GMT
Cycle lanes cause more trouble than they are worth and should be banned.
The BBC is always right on goody goody and the news showed off a new cycle lane system. The commentator burbled on for several minutes while showing this wonder, it was most remarkable that there was a continuous stream of cars on the roadway that remained, but not one cycle came by. The beeb had obviously been unable to rustle up any cycles to go round in circles to show how busy it was. Just causing another traffic jam so drivers could use a lower gear and keep braking and accelerating and pump out more of the gases they all make so much noise about.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 4, 2019 19:49:12 GMT
The cure for that is a visit to any Dutch city, and several Flemish ones.
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Post by rikita on Jan 11, 2019 0:42:52 GMT
they are trying out new types of cycling lanes here, and i hope they figure it out and build many of them within the next four years, because from age ten kids are not supposed to cycle on the pedestrian lane anymore, and right now, while i cycle on the street and feel okay about it, i would not at all feel safe to have my kid cycle on those streets ...
my family keeps wanting me to start learning how to drive, btw, no matter how often i say that at least in cities, driving individual cars should become outdated sooner or later ...
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Post by bjd on Jan 11, 2019 6:04:33 GMT
I took our car in for its annual servicing yesterday. The first thing I was told, "You don't drive much." Well, no. Almost never in the city and I live close enough to stores for most things that I walk, I take the subway to go downtown. My last two outings with the car were to go to the dump because they don't pick up garden waste any longer.
It's useful to know how to drive, but having a car is a big expense if you don't actually use it much. I was shocked yesterday; a little checkup, change of oil and whatever else they did and it cost 320€. Just the brake fluid cost 90. Mind you, car mechanics' hourly rate is a lot more than most people I know earn. I know those actually doing the work on the car don't get that much and there is 20% tax too, but it's still a shocker for an hour's work.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 11, 2019 13:40:07 GMT
I know several people here, including families with small children, who have ditched their individual car and opted instead for carshare schemes. They don't hire the car every day but find it handy on occasion for "large shoppings", taking garden waste and other stuff to the recycling centre and the occasional trip to a countryside destination with little or no public transport.
At the age I've reached, there is probably no potential reason I should learn to drive; I'm not going to become an organic farmer or rural vet. Sure, that means there are destinations I can't reach, but there are more that I can than I'll ever be able to visit.
One of the métro lines here will finally be concluded - we have been waiting 30 years. At least one other is necessary.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 11, 2019 14:04:03 GMT
Although I have never owned a vehicle of any sort (not even a bicycle), I got a drivers licence as soon as I could. Certain years in the past, I don't think I drove a single time, but in recent years, I would estimate that I have driven rental cars maybe 20 days a year.
My (Parisian) friend in Guatemala, who is 53 years old, only got a licence finally when he was transferred to Guatemala and learned that there was absolutely no transportation available from where he had to live (safe compound) and where he had to work. So he has a Brazilian licence which he got just before he left Brazil, but I checked for him and it is one of the countries which has an exchange agreement with France, so he can do that whenever he finally returns.
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Post by cheerypeabrain on Jan 11, 2019 19:12:46 GMT
I cant drive. I had a few lessons in my thirties but my tendency to take my hands off the wheel, cover my eyes and scream put the instructor on edge for some reason. I gave up with his blessing.
Husband drives and we have had a series of jallopies over the years, often going for months without a car at all or the means to attain one. However, when I retired I said to my beloved 'would you like a NEW car?' Used some of my pension lump sum to buy him a modest Hyundai...he loves if. I don't think that we'd buy new again but it was lovely to be able to do it the once. His face was a picture when we bought it. Worth every penny...and he paid me back when his private pension paid out when he was 65.
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