Women craving violence

[lola]

I defend Kerouac's right to ask disturbing, inflammatory, provocative questions, and to make unpopular statements.
But
I am very sorry that my post led to that reply. I must assume it had nothing to do with any of us here. Please blitz this thread after you apologize to Spindrift.

[cristina]

I generally make it a point not to participate in contentious threads, although I feel compelled to break my own rule now.

I support anyone's wish to open up a thread that invites debate of any kind.

But I really hate any sentence that starts with "All fill in the blank..." There just is no such thing. There is, however, such a thing as civil discourse. If anyone wants to bandy about the "elite" of any kind, then at least follow the road of considerate debate.

But more than that, I really despise personal attacks.

This forum is made up of a very small group of people. Personal insults are the surest way to to keep it small. Or even smaller.

That's all.

This thread was a huge disappointment. Especially since it could have started and developed in a much more constructive way.

[Jazz]

Given the subject matter, I feel that this thread would have been disturbing and controversial, no matter what. This is the board on the Port that allows for more powerful expression and I would like to think that we have the freedom to post with moderate censorship. Some subjects will naturally be emotionally charged, but I hope that we have the right to express our thoughts without fear of intimidation or exclusion.

Personal attacks are upsetting and don’t belong here. But, it is very, very easy for any of us to misinterpret a remark. I have done this in the past, reacted strongly to a post and the thread becomes, well, an extremely different thread. Sometimes the post is a failed attempt at humor, an oblivious and insensitive post, a deliberate jab... None of us really know.

It seems that most members will not participate when personal issues are triggered and I totally understand why. But, what I have noticed about forums in my short history is the ‘selective non-participation’ and that is sad. It isn’t ‘ok’ to allow one person to be attacked in communal silence, yet vigorously defend another.

As Christina said, the Port is a small forum. Perhaps this thread didn’t develop in the way that any of us expected, but it did. There are so many great people here and we can certainly deal with this. The exchange between Spindrift and Kerouac is between the two of them. I think the problem should be discussed by the people involved with PM's and not on-line.

[Deleted]

what I have noticed about forums in my short history is the ‘selective non-participation’ and that is sad. It isn’t ‘ok’ to allow one person to be attacked in communal silence, yet vigorously defend another.

I totally agree. The sitting on the fence while someone is abused or even, as in my case excluded by a leader on here, for months on end is not right. Sure I have received PM's from quite a few posters on here as to why the leader on here ignores my posts but no one is coming forth and asking the question directly or in public. It makes me uncomfortable to post on here. And I have asked Bixa (once) via PM why I am the only one she ignores, I stated that I would like to be on friendly terms with her, as we are both regulars on this site and if there if is anything that I had done to upset her, then please let me know. but got no reply. Nothing, ziltch. This was some months back.

It is so evident to anyone who is a regular on here that this is happening. But no one is brave enough to come forward and ask why. I think I should get an apology or at least an explanation from her to why I am subjected to this, but doubt that I will. My posts are never commented on by her. One only has to go though my posts and many pictures that I have posted to see this. Infact if there are many comments or photos mine will be deliberately overlooked while all the others get gushing comments. When it comes to me it's - silence. Always. and this has been the case for months. Not one single comment about any of my posts by Bixa. Strange and hurtful.

I have avoided this post for a long time, but as we are talking some home-truths here, then maybe it's about time it was aired in public. Yes, Kerouac should apologize to Spinddrift, who is one of the most gentlest, honest and down to earth people on here. And one who has more backbone then many others put together.

But before we paint Kerouac to the baddie here, we have to realize that being a
baddie' can take many forms. I think I deserve an apology from Bixa for her cold shouldering of me for so long, this has been going on for months now. Anyone else willing to (and brave enough to) come forward and support this or will you all just do it via PM (again) or sit on the fence and just watch?

but I hope that we have the right to express our thoughts without fear of intimidation or exclusion.


Without exclusion? I would have thought so, but not the case apparently. It wouldn't matter to me in the least if I was being shunned by another posters, but I get on with all the others. But when it's done by a mod, I feel that maybe I should leave, as it makes it makes me feel like I am intruding and am not welcome on here.

I feel that since I have been here I have made an effort to support this site and created posts (that do get thousands of replies), and yet I am the one who is made to feel like an outsider by her.

I deleted my account a few weeks back for this reason, but got many PM (on my site), and was asked to ignore this behaviour by her and to keep on posting. I have tried, but it gets tiring after a while.

[spindrift]

I'm at a loss as to how to act for the best of all of us on this excellent forum other than to say that I do not now expect Kerouac to apologize to me in public. If he had wanted to apologize to me then he had plenty of time to do so. I am willing to accept things as they are and just continue to post and enjoy the forum in the hope that there will be no more 'attacks' on me.

It isn't in my nature to sit on fences, as Deyana knows. She is the one person who has openly defended me recently when I was villified and banned by various Potters. If anyone wants details of how this came about I will inform them via PM. Just ask me.

Thank you, Deyana, for your praise and may I return the same words to you....for you are gentle, honest and brave and you do not sit comfortably on fences

I have noticed that Bixa has not replied to Deyana's posts who has found this to be very hurtful. If I were in her position I would find it very hurtful.

Perhaps those of us who wish to, can lay these troubled times to rest with encouraging words. Let us all be good friends again and strive forward together with no ill feeling. Is this possible?

[Deleted]

Thanks for you kind words, Spindrift.

I have found that those of us who do not sit comfortably on fences, and speak out do end up getting the shit end of the stick.

I have never been good at tolerating gang mentality or the cruelty that being excluded can have on the victim. One is as powerful as the other when it comes to hurting someone.

In the end all we can do is be true to ourselves (it certainly help me sleep well at night :: )
I can't force anyone to gain the decency to give me a reply once in a while, when I put so much effort into this site. Yeah, it hard to know what to say, human behaviour is a complex thing...

[spindrift]

human behaviour is a complex thing...

Yes, it certainly is complex. All the more so on forums.

Regarding complexity, feelings and truth - I would like to tell you what Grecian said to me not long ago. He said that he would never speak to people face to face as he writes to them on forums. He wouldn't dare ..... he regards forums as places for letting off steam which comes out mostly as abuse. But why are people not mindful of the hurt they are causing to others?

[Deleted]

We can ask 'Why' until the cows come home, and still not have an answer.

Maybe we just have accept what others have said in reply to my question of 'why?', that in the end maybe it all boils down to this: >>

Jealousy and wanting to be the centre of attention. (not my words, but they do make some sense in this case).

Strange, childish and petty, and detrimental to this forum, but like I said, human behaviour is a complex thing....

[Deleted]

I wonder now if I will be banned for speaking out? The altermate 'exclusion'. Maybe that was the whole point of it all along?

Keep quite or be banned? We'll see.

[lola]

Okay, just this once before I swear off this type thread for good:

Emotional conflicts are much more fun to be in than to observe. Just ask police who try to break up domestic arguments. Recreational for the participants, unpleasant for others.

Some of you have conflicts you've imported from elsewhere. Maybe you could start a special "Spats" thread and duke it out there so others can know to stay out of the crossfire.

[Deleted]

I deleted my last post in here simply because after a much needed night's sleep,I deceided I don't want to be part of this thread.
My sentiment about moving on however,remains...

[spaceneedle]

The fact that all the ladies are even responding to this thread at all sort of proves K2's point.

But I digress... I have met way more masochistic men than women, to be honest.

[bjd]

May 19, 2010 6:13:32 GMT spaceneedle said:

The fact that all the ladies are even responding to this thread at all sort of proves K2's point.

I don't see how -- they responded, they didn't agree.

[Deleted]

This subject seems to have gone seriously off topic while I was away.

I was very much intrigued by the works of Erin Prizzey, the founder of the Women’s Shelter in Chiswick. She has written a number of books regarding domestic violence, but she appears to be quite unpopular among many women because of her findings.

She worked with more than 5,000 women at her shelter and found that more than half of them were “as or more violent than the partners they tried to escape from.” And they would return to their partners again and again because of their "addiction" to pain and violence, which they often purposely brought upon themselves with various provocations.

Our own sense of what is decent and right makes us reject unpopular findings. The publisher of one of Erin Prizzey’s books received a phone call from a women’s group saying that they would come and smash the windows of the building and then kill him – all this to reject any claim that women are violent.

Yet she never in her works said that the women were "spontaneously" violent. As usual, the most violent women were abused as children and reproduced the same behavior. As far as I’m concerned that doesn’t make them innocent. If I had started a thread entitled “Men Craving Small Children,” I doubt very seriously that everybody would have gone into denial and said that the subject simply does not exist. Oh, I’m pretty sure that one or more people would have said that men are inherently evil and that's why men and never women do such things (even if it isn't true) – after all, the burqa exists only because men cannot be trusted to not turn into animals in the presence of a female form.

(I am disappointed that spindrift thought that I was insulting her. As she has talked about this situation in the past, I thought that she might have some insights into it. I don’t recall it ever being mentioned that her passport had been confiscated or that she had been locked in a room, so I thought there might be an explanation as to why she did not leave the moment the problem manifested itself. I have two women friends who left husband and companion after the very first slap. However, I also know that there are situations where it is not that simple to pick up and leave – but the length of time that one stays definitely opens the subject to conjecture.)

Anyway, from what I have read on this thread, it appears that the majority of us have difficulty grasping the subject at all and must disparage anyone who brings it up.

From "unsubstantiated ignorance" (Bixa) to "retro machismo" (Lagatta) to the idea that I am having a "fantasy" (Jazz) or playing a "game" (Bixa), I suppose it is true that few people here were ready for a serious discussion but were instead ready to give a taste of their own violent (?) reaction to a disturbing subject.

I will not think of any of you as hysterical harridans, and I am quite sensitive to any distress that I may have caused, but please do not expect me to enter any serious discussions with you in the future.

[Deleted]

At least you have the decency to come on here and give Spindrift an explanation regarding where you were coming from with your comments. So good for you on that, Kerouac. At least she has that.

Regarding 'women craving violence'. I'm in two minds about it. I don't think any woman that is in her right mind would ever want to be beat up by a man or anyone else. But we live in a strange world. And we can't close our minds to all the variations of personalities there are out there.

Let's face it, prisons are full of violent women, and yes, they can be just as violent and sometimes even more so than men. More atrociouses are commented by women on other women in prisons then you will find in the men's prisons and similar institutions.

I think women can also be more deceptive too. Much, much more than men. And their aggressiveness can come out in other ways, i.e. bitchiness, emotional abuse, and convincing ways etc. I'm sure there are women out there who do get a high from violence, just like there are men out there who will go to prostitutes to get painfully whipped, and verbally abused. And sometimes these men hold prominent important jobs and no one would ever guess.

We live in a strange world... nothing surprises me anymore.

[fumobici]

I'm not sure there is much gender differentiation in masochism, differences in the ways people experience it are probably artifacts of our various social constructs. And many people I'm sure endure what we would agree is mistreatment simply for lack of seeing any better alternatives- and in a patriarchal male dominated society (which one isn't to at least some degree?) those who feel trapped in this way are quite logically more likely to be women.

I have no problem with frank and lively discussion of controversial topics- I am currently quite enjoying a quite high-level discussion on the god proposition on another board- but I sometimes forget not everyone has been hardened to controversial discourse by exposure to relatively unconstrained, hard and tumble internet discussion (which I personally love about the internet, its possibility of brutal frankness enabled by the relative anonymity) and you can see some are more attuned to and comfortable with discussions held within more conventional social constraints.

[tillystar]

It is quite amusing that because a particular group of people disagreed with the op suddenly they are accused of being incapable of serious or frank discussion.

[Deleted]

Amusing? I hope you are joking. I based my OP on documented sociological research and all I got in return was outrage based on.... what exactly? The idea that anything that people dislike can't be true?

[lola]

I think you got jumped on way too hard, k.

However, this is an emotional subject for roughly half of us and not one of those detached scientific questions.

[Deleted]

I really try to fight the male/female stereotypes as much as possible, but my own experience (from frequenting the wrong people?) seems to indicate that many subjects have to be sugar coated for female consumption. Just looking at all of the various web forums and their inevitable "ladies chatroom," I am forced to face the evidence that equality is not a real goal for a lot of people.

I understand that this is an extremely sensitive subject, but I thought that this was a sufficiently adult forum for this mysterious subject to be broached without just reading gut reactions of outrage. If we could understand why women (and yes, some men) keep going back to be beaten again and again, maybe we could help them. But it appears that the majority prefer to close their eyes.

Thanks, Lola.

[lola]

Equal but different is how I see it.

[Kimby]

I thought that "ladies chatrooms" were not "discussion light" but rather created in deference to men's distaste for feminine hygiene issues, as well as subjects like shopping and dieting that hold little interest to men... So as not to clutter up "serious forums" with such stuff.

My reaction to the OP was that it was out of character for the kerouac I thought I had come to "know". Also that maybe he was bored and looking to stir up the pot a bit.

But knowing all the wonderful discussions he has initiated and contributed to over the years on this and other forums, I was willing to give him benefit of the doubt. Though I totally disagree with the premise of the OP, I don't really want to join the discussion of it. (I'd rather turn a blind eye to this serious issue that I have so little real experience with.)

I will say that I agree with a little of what most of you have said. And that I am surprised that so few men are joining in. And that bixa has seemingly abandoned this thread after page 1....

[Deleted]

I was following this thread with great interest until it took the weird turn into what others perceived as a personal attack and then another even weirder turn when people got real wrapped up in their own personal agendas having nothing to do with the OP.
I did not think that Kerouac meant to attack anyone.One could easily construe it that way if one wanted to... If one comes forth and divulges intimate,personal information about oneself on here,then, I think a discussion of is pretty fair game. The door is open.
A long time ago,I believe it was Baz,posted that "threads have a way of taking on a life of their own"...how very right he was/is.
I'm sorry the original OP and what potentially could have been a meaningful discourse on got so sidetracked and derailed.

[onlymark]

Bugger.
I was away when this was started and would've loved to take more part in it.
It has been asked as to why there seems to be little male input in the thread. Maybe because it was obvious from the start there's be a 'cat fight' and K2 would suffer being ganged up on. Which would be interesting as a spectator.
Apart from various agendas being aired I think it's quite fair that if someone has given info openly in a forum then it can be referred back to, as with asking Spindrift for comment on what must have been a very traumatic experience. And I understand kerouac's comment on practicality that she still had her passport etc.

I'm not sure of the way to take the comment from Lola that "Emotional conflicts are much more fun to be in than to observe. Just ask police who try to break up domestic arguments. Recreational for the participants, unpleasant for others." and whether it is a reference to Police or the domestic couple enjoying it.
As having some experience of these things I can say they are a situation that the Police can never win and few participants I've seen actually enjoy it.

However, nothing the OP has said strikes me as untrue or that I would take issue with. Women are not immune from enjoying violence. Personal experience also tells me this is so and I'm not an unusual case, no matter that there are many denials on here I sometimes wonder of too many of you are burying your heads in the sand and have an automatic reaction to defend your gender.
You can't be that naive to actually believe it isn't so.

But the OP has two parts. The first accepting that it is true, the second part asking why it is. No-one has been able to go past the first part to answer "Is this purely a psychiatric problem, a societal one, or a biological one dating back to prehistory?"

[hwinpp]

LOL!

I see you got a bit of a hammering there, Jack!

[Deleted]

Yes, that's the delight of the internet. I must have been craving abuse.

[Jazz]

This Op could have been signed, Provocateur. Perhaps a sluggish few days on the Port and time to whip up the post count? Initially, I did think that it was worth discussing and still do, but not as a subject of humor. K: ‘I must have been craving abuse’. Witty play on words, K.

It is interesting that the males on this thread unite in communal support of the OP. Certainly, Kerouac and Mark.
HW: your only comment is that you find this ‘LOL”.
Spaceneedle: your post was accurately countered by bjd.
***Fumobici: the only male to present a refreshingly objective viewpoint.

I assume that you each have asked your various girlfriends, wives, and mothers, “Do you enjoy being abused (physically and emotionally), and raped? And were, of course, met with a resounding “oh yes, dear, and all of my friends do as well, actually most women I know love violent abuse.” True?

Kerouac: You appear to have a problem with disagreement. Someone who disagrees with you is not to be ‘taken seriously’. It’s not much of a debate if no one disagrees.

Mark and Kerouac: You agree with the OP, yet for some reason you expect those of us who do not agree to substantiate your premise. The onus is on you to prove, or explain this, since you appear to believe it.

Possibly, in your angst, you didn’t read all of the replies.
In #1, I clearly stated:
Reply #1 on May 15, 2010, 6:17pm » ...

Trying to be somewhat objective, I suppose the odious thoughts...

‘I was thinking how many women are excited when men fight over them’
‘what is even worse, the number of women who want to be ‘punished’
‘the fact that he shows me shows that he cares’’

…may be true for some women in some cultures. If so, I think it’s a combination of a psychiatric problem, a societal one and a biological one. Since we can only speak with any semblance of understanding from today, the first two are significant. Our society is patriarchal etc.
… (perhaps you may want to read the post?) Essentially, the childhood abuse of a woman by a male can lead to a dichotomy,
1. distrust and hatred of males.
or
2. acceptance that this abuse is deserved and is their fate.

As we all know, it is possible to dredge up support and statistics online for any statement you care to make.

The abuse of women is not a joke.
To dangle a provocative ‘women craving violence’ is not funny.
To toss off sincere protests with humor (?) or ‘can’t take you seriously’ is pathetic.
It is, at minimum, not in the true spirit of debate.

[Deleted]

If I were to repost, I would undoubtedly avoid the term 'craving' but that is obviously what got the attention. 'Women accepting violence' would have been very PC and would not have engendered the same attack mode, but it would have been excessively ambiguous.

There are actually two completely different subjects that were broached, even though only one was noticed.

One was that a lot of women get excited by men fighting over them. I stand by that statement. The women are not in danger because it is the men beating the shit out of each other because they find you so irresistible.

The second point was the idea of women accepting violence to themselves afterwards. That is the touchy point, whatever the reason.

In any case, if you want to be fair, Jazz, you will not just examine what the men wrote but also the reactions of all of the women and give us your insights.

[onlymark]

Jazz, no-one can prove this one way or the other. The proof to me is only the personal experience I've had. As it is I that has had them and not you then it is virtually impossible to convince you or anyone unless you've had my experiences.

I assume that you each have asked your various girlfriends, wives, and mothers, “Do you enjoy being abused (physically and emotionally), and raped? And were, of course, met with a resounding “oh yes, dear, and all of my friends do as well, actually most women I know love violent abuse.” True?
So it can't be discussed using any humour at all, yet being blatantly flippant is acceptable?

So, as for proof, I can only give an idea of my experiences. I was raised and worked in one of the most violent parts of England (there are statistics if you really want them). A place where the violence against the person figures are twice the national average. Until the age of thirty five when I left, violence of one sort or another was a regular occurrence.
For ten years every working weekend had numerous domestic violence incidents. I admit a small minority were female instigated, but they were still a large amount. And often, as it came out in questioning, that the female instigated it and felt good when doing it.

There were many other incidents of violence, not domestic. Again to get a good feeling out of possibly boredom, expectation of normal behaviour, often not drink related, but just pure violence for the feeling it gave.
There were also the female sufferers of violence. Granted that the vast majority didn't want it. But there were still those who felt their husband/boyfriend didn't love them if it didn't happen. There were those who set out to make their partner jealous, not only to see the effect it had by males fighting, but in the full knowledge that when at home they'd suffer also.

There were those that took pride in flouting their black eye and bruises to their mates to prove they had a 'real man'. There were those who would provoke by any means a male (or a female) just to get into a fight.
Those that would soon discover the buttons to press in their partner to get him to react, and would make full use of them.
Police women, of all people, were also too often like this. Maybe they joined the Police to be nearer to the violence, I have no idea. But there seemed to be a greater proportion that did than among the general population.

I knew a Police women who put up with an abusive relationship because, as she told me, it relieves the stress built up on the job. Another who regularly set upon her husband. Another who persuaded a colleague of mine to break into her house and 'mock rape' her. Another who admitted she couldn't have an orgasm unless she was being punched. Not slapped, punched. Another who was a football hooligan, but only on away games so she never got caught or recognised. Another who .......
There were many.

I don't profess to know the reasons behind their behaviour. Peer pressure, abusive home life, abusive childhood, perception of normality, drink, drugs, ego, whatever. I don't know what they are thinking and/or how much true enjoyment they get out of it. These motivations are beyond me. Maybe the high of when it's over, maybe the sheer physical activity, the danger of not knowing how it will finish, the adrenaline, the stories the next day.

But the sheer fact of experiencing it, over and over again, makes me know it is true.
But why?
Now, that is a question I can't answer.

[spaceneedle]

May 25, 2010 18:11:47 GMT Jazz said:

It is interesting that the males on this thread unite in communal support of the OP. Certainly, Kerouac and Mark.
HW: your only comment is that you find this ‘LOL”.
Spaceneedle: your post was accurately countered by bjd.
***Fumobici: the only male to present a refreshingly objective viewpoint.

For what it's worth, I'm not male.

And I'm also a survivor of what would be termed severe domestic violence in my past.

In spite of that, I tend to call things as I see them.