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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 19, 2020 19:43:11 GMT
Um, it is entirely possible to criticize Israel and US policy re: Israel without being anti-Semitic.
The Flowers opinion piece was offered up in response to Mark's wondering about what was going on in regard to the UK being charged with racism against M.Markle and as a perfect example of how the royals (& other celebrities) are discussed.
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Post by whatagain on Jan 19, 2020 20:01:36 GMT
I don't follow at all but can't think I would want their life. As for how much it costs I like the idea of royals having no political agenda and having to be reekected. They do their job and that is it.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 19, 2020 21:12:02 GMT
There are many Israelis who are critical of Likudist policy. Of course one can be without being in the least antisemitic.
I don't think anyone thinks the UK is in any way comparable to Nazi Germany. Whether the tabloid press is actually racist or just think it sells copies is debatable.
Money and fine estates or not, there is no way I'd want to be in such a fishbowl.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 19, 2020 21:55:06 GMT
Money and fine estates or not, there is no way I'd want to be in such a fishbowl. Well, for me the jewelry would be a compelling inducement.
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Post by questa on Jan 20, 2020 0:00:24 GMT
I have only a passing interest in the current crop of Royals because I see them as history in the making. What will be seen as the high and low points in the House of Mountbatten-Windsor in the next century? Certainly Anne's divorce and re-marriage set the scene for later divorces. Then the rush to find a virgin for Charles started a series of events that will rate highly in Women's magazines as well as the catalyst that dragged the Monarchy into the 21st century.
Now a new situation has arisen. The word "Abdicate" is a dirty word to the Palace but things are looking very similar. Fortunately there are several heirs before Harry, who has renounced his title and income. Elizabeth's last child, Edward, has managed to lead a private life, as have his children who have chosen to drop any titles and work for their living.
Will the coming generations be weighed down with centuries of tradition or live ordinary lives with work, bills, parking tickets etc like everyone.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 20, 2020 0:15:41 GMT
Or become bicycle monarchy, like the Dutch and the Danes?
Yes, Charles, William, his 3 kids at least come before Harry, and now the little princess is one of the heirs to the same degree as her older and younger brothers.
Well, they may look similar, but as I said before, the American divorcée this time round is definitely NOT a Nazi, unlike Wallis. Lots of countries would simply have had them bumped off. Accidents at sea were rather easy to arrange.
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Post by bjd on Jan 20, 2020 7:42:57 GMT
Um, it is entirely possible to criticize Israel and US policy re: Israel without being anti-Semitic. The Flowers opinion piece was offered up in response to Mark's wondering about what was going on in regard to the UK being charged with racism against M.Markle and as a perfect example of how the royals (& other celebrities) are discussed. I agree totally, Bixa. I expressed myself badly -- it was the article's opener that reminded me of the way some people criticize Israeli politics.
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Post by onlyMark on Jan 20, 2020 9:40:45 GMT
Unfortunately in this day and age it does seem difficult to criticise anything without someone seeing it through the lens of racism/sexism/......ism. As for the racist as aspect of Meghan being called 'uppity', I never knew that the word was associated in a different way that when we/I called my kids the same during their teenage years.
In the police I stopped a car with heavily tinted windows, including the windscreen. I couldn't see in at all and I doubted the driver could see out very well either. As I got to the driver's window it was rolled down and I was greeted with, "You've only stopped me because I'm black." No matter how I said I couldn't anything at all (and it was illegal), he still made a complaint about me.
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Post by bjd on Jan 20, 2020 9:51:15 GMT
I do think that in the States, "uppity" was used for blacks who were accused to trying to get above their station in life. British tabloids saying Meghan was "straight outta Compton" was also extrememy insulting, since Compton is an area of Los Angeles with a lot of gang problems.
So yes, I think racism does play quite a role in criticism of Meghan Markle.
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Post by whatagain on Jan 20, 2020 10:57:10 GMT
Something that surprises me - and annoys me - in US tabloids or even Wikipedia is the need to define the race/origin. You'll see American European xx or Native American or Afro American or even Jamaican American. No wonder racism remains. Zidane and Noah are french - at least as long as they were winning 😜 Nobody says the afrofrench Noah or the french Arab Zidane. Unless a guy who is racist.
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Post by questa on Jan 20, 2020 10:58:58 GMT
It is used frequently in the book of "Gone with the Wind" by Margaret Mitchell. It is a shame that it carries the racism association because it is a good word by sound. I used to use it on stroppy teenage boys, "Cool it, you are both getting too uppity...now go and tidy your rooms."
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 20, 2020 10:59:11 GMT
I do think that in the States, "uppity" was used for blacks who were accused to trying to get above their station in life. British tabloids saying Meghan was "straight outta Compton" was also extrememy insulting, since Compton is an area of Los Angeles with a lot of gang problems. So yes, I think racism does play quite a role in criticism of Meghan Markle. Did the tabloids actually say that or is it an n urban myth?
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 11:25:00 GMT
In a French comedy last year about multiple mixed marriages, the Senegalese parents come to France for the birth of their grandchild. Since the mother of the baby is a very pale blonde, her own parents are a bit disappointed when the baby turns out to be much darker than expected (of course they don't admit it), but the African grandfather is overjoyed. "This proves the superiority of African blood!" he exclaims with glee. I found it very appropriate and a bit daring to throw in some reverse racism for once. Of course in the United States it is automatic since any child with one black parent is called black.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 13:25:54 GMT
The only question on a French census form that allows racial speculation is something about which country your parents were born in. And of course after just one generation, even that trace is gone.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 20, 2020 14:43:48 GMT
Well, racial and religious designations on forms are illegal in France, due to their use by the Nazis and French collaborators. I get the idea that affirmative action in France might be more inclined to use poorer neighbourhoods and postcodes, no?
I also have some Afro-Caribbean ancestry, among several other things, but my very curly-kinky hair could come from the southern European strain. I have blue-green eyes and am definitely "white", but not a pale Scandi. It becomes ridiculous at a certain point. I'd call Meghan a person of colour, but not a Black person, though some in the US would.
Huckle and also Bixi, wouldn't all of those foods have been consumed by many people in the US South, whatever their colour or origin?
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Post by casimira on Jan 20, 2020 15:09:45 GMT
Well, racial and religious designations on forms are illegal in France, due to their use by the Nazis and French collaborators. I get the idea that affirmative action in France might be more inclined to use poorer neighbourhoods and postcodes, no? I also have some Afro-Caribbean ancestry, among several other things, but my very curly-kinky hair could come from the southern European strain. I have blue-green eyes and am definitely "white", but not a pale Scandi. It becomes ridiculous at a certain point. I'd call Meghan a person of colour, but not a Black person, though some in the US would. Huckle and also Bixi, wouldn't all of those foods have been consumed by many people in the US South, whatever their colour or origin? In NOLA some of these foods are described as "Soul Food" and many restaurants specialize in menus featuring them. But, not necessarily grits or greens per say which are more regional type foods.
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Post by lagatta on Jan 20, 2020 15:29:42 GMT
Yes, including some very famous restaurants in NOLA.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 15:46:33 GMT
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 18:45:54 GMT
Racist mayor of Béziers Robert Menard tried to use names, but he was slapped down immediately.
Actually, France uses financial data from tax declarations, family allocations and other welfare payments to determine affirmative action. It would be horrifying to us if racial and ethnic criteria were used. There are plenty of dirt poor ethnic French who need help from the government, too.
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Post by fumobici on Jan 20, 2020 19:29:10 GMT
I'm of two minds about gathering/reporting of racial or ethnic data. On one hand the designations are subjective and can be ridiculously inaccurate. This on top of the fact that the very idea of racial categories has little or no scientific basis to begin with. But "races" are very much a real thing in the social realm, and the data, however scientifically flawed, is necessary to implement affirmative action or to hold police and other governmental authorities accountable for racist actions on their part. I want to know if the schools are being racially segregated, and if the cops are picking on ethnic minorities, and you need these data to deal with bad actors and implement changes to help.
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Post by patricklondon on Jan 20, 2020 20:11:10 GMT
I'm of two minds about gathering/reporting of racial or ethnic data. On one hand the designations are subjective and can be ridiculously inaccurate. This on top of the fact that the very idea of racial categories has little or no scientific basis to begin with. That is rather the point, though. It doesn't need to meet an abstract scientific or objective standard, or rather, the objective reality that's being represented is the subjectivity itself. I know in the UK the National Statistics road-test the categories they use, to see if they're meaningful to the public at large, which is the only way ethnic monitoring can be of any use to identify possible discrimination.
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Post by whatagain on Jan 20, 2020 20:30:28 GMT
Seems the only human races were homosapiens or Neanderthal or ... all remaining humans are of the same race. We terminated the Neanderthal long ago and had to invent subcategories to carry on mass extermination
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 20:52:42 GMT
You sound like a slightly worried father.
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Post by bixaorellana on Jan 20, 2020 20:55:41 GMT
... it was the article's opener that reminded me of the way some people criticize Israeli politics. Good point, Bjd. I think the writer was trying to draw that kind of a parallel, but didn't pull it off very well. Meghan being called 'uppity', I never knew that the word was associated in a different way Both Bjd & Huckle explained very succinctly why the word is so loaded in the US. Something that surprises me - and annoys me - in US tabloids or even Wikipedia is the need to define the race/origin. Not just those two places, Whatagain -- it's everywhere. It is one of those things so entrenched in the thinking, speaking, and writing in the US that it's useful as an indication of our conscious or unconscious national attitude that the white, specifically English-heritage population is the true standard (and standard-setting) core of the country, i.e., "Americans". That of course means that everyone else is a hyphenated American, with the tacit sense that they're not quite the real, desirable thing. in the United States it is automatic since any child with one black parent is called black. Without debating whether that is wrong or right, it does reflect the fact that that in the US "black" people, regardless of which parent might be black, will usually grow up self-identifying as black. I can't see this ever going away in our lifetimes or really, until the US finally gets as "mixed" as it should have been long, long ago. wouldn't all of those foods have been consumed by many people in the US South, whatever their colour or origin? This was already well answered by Casimira and Huckle, but I'll give my mother's definition here. Back in the '60s when everyone started hearing about soul food, my mother (who's from Louisiana) saw a tv program featuring this newly vaunted aspect of American cooking. Her comment: "Huh! That's soul food? That's what I always knew as just "food"."
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 21:16:22 GMT
I was (let's say) shielded from quite a few traditional Deep South foods as a child, since I had a French mother. So it is interesting to note what was considered acceptable in my family (i.e. validated by my mother) -- red beans and rice, barbecue, any kind of seafood, fried chicken, ribs.
Things like grits, corn bread, greens other than spinach, never crossed the threshold of our house. (I sometimes wonder if my biological father secretly ate some of these things when he was out of the house. I had to choke down a few of them at school. Yuck.)
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 20, 2020 21:23:00 GMT
Not the greatest day. Last week I locked my office in the garden and promptly lost the key which refused to be found. Today I got in a locksmith who turned out to be a well built Geordie lady called Alice which was a bit incongruous. Did the job, freed the lock and relieved me of £60.
Then our kitchen mixer tap has corroded at the base and leaking badly. It's only 4 years old. Supplier has agreed to replace but we have to bring in water from the bathroom.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 21:35:31 GMT
£60 would be extremely cheap for Paris. Unheard of even.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 20, 2020 21:40:31 GMT
I’m sure it would be much more in London but I’m in the sticks. £60 for my own fault is still very galling.
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Post by kerouac2 on Jan 20, 2020 21:45:03 GMT
Obviously, especially when you find the key tomorrow morning.
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Post by mickthecactus on Jan 20, 2020 21:52:12 GMT
It's bound to happen.
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