Banning the concept of "race"

[Deleted]

Today, the French legislature voted to remove all reference and use of the word "race" from all laws in France. The next step will be to remove all references to "race" in the constitution.

This is mostly symbolic because racial statistics pretty much ended with the revolution in 1789. There are only two groups in France: French citizens and foreigners, and there is no reference to ethnic origin. (Naturally, during WW2 some laws are imposed in contradiction of this for a few years.)

Naturally, the laws against racism, antisemitism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc., which mostly date from 1881 will remain on the books.

In modern times, it has been noted that there has been so much mixing of races that it is completely ridiculous to refer to anybody as belonging to a specific race. People like Empress Joséphine or the author Alexandre Dumas are never referred to by their "origins."

There are numerous people who say that it is hypocritical to ignore that races exist and that, for example, the police often base their identity checks on "complexion" rather than doing them at random.

And since discrimination still exists, how can you deny that races exist?

Nevertheless, I pretty much approve of the attempt to ban the concept of races and ethnicities because it seems to me to be a move in the right direction for the future.

Any thoughts on this?

[lagatta]

I certain like this idea in principle, as biologically, "races" don't exist among humans. As the Calypsonian (from T+T) Lord Pretender sang many decades ago: guanaguanaresingsat.blogspot.ca/2011/02/human-race-song.html

The problem is when this becomes a fiction, though. We know the police are more likely to check the papers of Brown an Black people, especially from North and West Africa, and worse, there is subtle and not so subtle employment and housing discrimination - obviously not only in France.

Couldn't these good intentions make it harder to fight such overt and subtle discrimination?

[Deleted]

There are numerous people who say that it is hypocritical to ignore that races exist and that, for example, the police often base their identity checks on "complexion" rather than doing them at random.

And since discrimination still exists, how can you deny that races exist?

We know the police are more likely to check the papers of Brown an Black people, especially from North and West Africa, and worse, there is subtle and not so subtle employment and housing discrimination

I always get my head bitten off any time I talk about race discrimination. But oh well. The above quotes say a lot and are very true. People of color still have to work harder, do better, be better, be smarter, be more educated, be nicer, (and just be more outstanding people), in order to get the same treatment as a white person. There is no disputing that. What does that tell us?

I used to get involved in all sorts of arguments to try and put my point across whenever I saw injustice to someone and I knew, just knew, that it was because they were colored. (There is so much of that that goes on, especially in cyberspace - where people feel it's okay to treat others unfairly and unjustly and they know they will get away with it. And because they do it around like minded people, they do). Thankfully not on this forum. I know Kerouac would never allow that kind of crap on here. I have left other forums simply because the 'jokes' and comments on there were so racist and accepted by the majority, that is was sickening.

But in the end this kind of discrimination is only a reflection of what happens in real life. I don't expect white people to fully understand just how difficult it is to be a person of color and live in a white country, I am happy that people like Kerouac and Lagatta are brave enough to talk of what they see, that gives me hope and faith in the good people out there.

The saddest and maybe the most worrying thing is that some will do whatever they can and say whatever they have to, in hope that, ignorant and clueless people will believe them, and in doing so, create and spread more hate and racism.

It's shocking really how much racism there is out there. It's saddens me and in the end it affects us all in one way or another.

[lagatta]

That is true - I just seethe at the comments when discussions arise on Indigenous issues, for one thing. But do click on my song clip, which will cheer anyone up. It dates back to the 1950s, I think, and the Calypsonian is very funny about how stupid racism is.

I agree with you, but at the same time I really admire the ideals espoused in the refusal of the concept of race. Of course racism exists, but it is an evil fiction. Obvious that different skin tones exist, and usually not hard to distinguish a Norwegian from a Congolese - though nowadays there are mixed origins people in both of those countries - but a Sicilian and a Tunisian?

[fumobici]

Race has almost no scientific basis of course, it's mostly a cultural construct. In that sense it is, however, very real. I would share the worry that ignoring the concept of race in the eyes of the law would make remedying racist culture through legislation more difficult. I'm a big believer for instance in having affirmative action as a tool for remedying deep set inequalities in society and I'm not sure how this would work within a color blind framework of laws. Visible minorities get routinely discriminated against in even the most putatively liberal, enlightened and cosmopolitan places. Equality cannot be left up to mere persuasion and education--it must be forced upon even/especially the intransigently unwilling or it will never be minimized.

[Deleted]

Affirmative action is used more and more in France, but it is not racially based. Economic and residential criteria are used to try to boost people from certain areas. This at least prevents the outcry of reverse discrimination that one sometimes hears among 'poor white' people who get overlooked in certain countries that are making otherwise noble efforts to right wrongs.

[bjd]

It looks more like "let's abolish the word 'race' in the constitution and then we can pretend racism doesn't exist".

As mentioned above, there is discrimination in France based on skin colour or name (on a job application, for example), despite the fact that origins are not asked for in census reports. It has also been argued that actually knowing who is living in France would help to make laws that compensate for this, rather than pretending that everyone here descends from nos ancêtres les Gaulois.

The present justice minister's suggestion that descendants of slaves in Haiti in the early 19th century should be compensated by being given government land. What criteria is she planning to use if not skin colour?

It just all looks like another social suggestion to get people's minds off the crappy economic situtation.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2013 6:49:06 GMT bjd said:

It looks more like "let's abolish the word 'race' in the constitution and then we can pretend racism doesn't exist".

It looks like exactly the opposite to me. Pretending racism doesn't exist means never taking any action on the subject.

I don't think that anybody has pretended that all of the French descend from the Gauls for a long long time. The French regionalists have made sure of that, without even mentioning the descendents of immigrants (most of whom are Italian, Polish, Spanish and Portuguese, by the way, but they came to France 70 years earlier than the immgrants from North & Sub-Saharan Africa and Asia).

As for compensating descendents of slaves (which I very much doubt will be done), I don't see anything to do with race regarding that, as they have mixed with other races just like everybody else.

[patricklondon]

I'm with those who say that you can't deal with discrimination and racism simply by relying on theoretical and formal equality before the law: the rules may be "colour-blind", the reality often isn't.

However scientifically unsound, "culturally-constructed" subjective racism exists, in various forms (from visceral bigotry, to fear of the different, to outdated assumptions that may or may not be well-intentioned but socially counter-productive, as the Macintyre commission uncovered in relation to the murder of Stephen Lawrence).

And that isn't going to be eliminated until it can seen in operation institutionally, not just at the anecdotal level of individual perception; which means you have to collect statistics based on the actual constructs and terminologies people use. There won't be real change until you can go to the people in charge of an institution and say "Why is it that X% of people who see themselves as get the best jobs/service/whatever in your institution but only Y% of those who see themselves as ?" will you start, however slowly, to get some way towards genuine equality.

[bjd]

So why have French censuses never included information about origins?

I just had a look at a French census form. It asks your date and place of birth. For anyone born abroad, it asks where. Also asks if you have French citizenship and how you acquired it, as well as nationality at birth.

Just for me personally, it wouldn't say anywhere what my origins are since I was born in G Britain but not of Anglo parents.

Let alone asking, like they do in the States, about how you classify yourself racially -- including Jedi.

Of course, just by looking in a French phone directory you can see that people come from all over the place.

[bjd]

Sorry, Patrick. The first sentence is directed at Kerouac's post -- you posted while I was looking up the form and typing.

[Deleted]

Visible minorities get routinely discriminated against in even the most putatively liberal, enlightened and cosmopolitan places. Equality cannot be left up to mere persuasion and education--it must be forced upon even/especially the intransigently unwilling or it will never be minimized.

I'm with those who say that you can't deal with discrimination and racism simply by relying on theoretical and formal equality before the law: the rules may be "colour-blind", the reality often isn't.

Exactly. That hits the nail on the head. It's often those that hold fear of the unknown, or are insecure in themselves for whatever reason and the misinformed and ignorant that tend to hate the most. Racism is based on those things. Asking people to just 'sort it out and live with it' without any actions being enforced is simply not going to work.

[lagatta]

Yes, even though races are a fiction, racism can cause immense harm, and of course at worse even justify slavery or genocide. The latter often with tiny or invented differences, as in the genocide of Indigenous villagers in Guatemala or the Rwandan genocide.

Almost all "non-Indigenous" Guatemalans are Mestizos; they tended to be taller than the very diminutive Native people mostly because they were better fed.

I think the shadow of the Holocaust (and French complicity therein) has a lot to do with the reluctance to ask questions about origins. Actually, I think if French authorities were serious about affirmative action based on residence, that would go a long way towards improving the situation of people who grow up in poor suburbs and housing estates, though there would still be the surname-based discrimination.

There is still racial discrimination against Québécois of Haitian origin, though many have surnames also found among the majority French-speaking group. Of course many highly-educated Maghrebi and Sub-Saharan immigrants here are underemployed, but it is hard at this point to say to what extent this is due to discrimination or simply being "newcomers" without the network that so many jobs depend on everywhere. (I know people involved in the field of helping such immigrants find decent jobs).

The resurgence of hatred can of course be an unfortunate product of insecurity and social crisis, as is the case with the rise of neo-Nazi parties in Greece and Hungary.

[Deleted]

Well, the new government has created numerous "priority development zones" to boost the problem areas, but it is far too soon to see much in the way of results. Then again, the 18th arrondissement of Paris is one of those zones, and it is being developed at top speed, but I think that is more because it is Paris than any extra boosting. Nevertheless, just a couple blocks from me, they are building a new university institute, a new library (named after Vaclev Havel), a giant youth hostel, and the roof of the building is the largest urban solar energy plant in Europe -- the new collège (named after Aimé Césaire) and gymnasium on the same site opened last year, and they look great. Since, if ethnic statistics existed, it could quickly be determined that my neighbourhood is about 75% Asian (ethnic Chinese and Indian subcontinent) and African (Maghrebi and Sub-Sahara), the city has really poured a lot of money to benefit an area populated mostly by groups that are often in the lowest income categories.

And they are also doing some quite spectacular work in renovating decrepit buildings into social housing -- and building completely new buildings when the old ones must be razed.

[lagatta]

Yes, I also think the tramlines will be a big help in the old inner suburbs. Has public transport been improved in Clichy-sous-Bois, for example?

CVs could also first be screened without the candidate's name attached (which is a mechanism against sexism as well as against ethnicity-based discrimination). And of course, eliminate the damned photographs!

[Deleted]

Tramway line 4 is supposed to be extended through there, but the surrounding towns have been trying to block it.

www.t4clichymontfermeil.com/

They have tried anonymous CVs... unsuccessfully so far. When I was recruiting the people to replace me, I noticed that most of the CVs did not have photographs, and most of them did not mention age -- but it was usually very easy to figure out from their educational background and previous job experience.

I should mention that almost my entire professional career was spent in a company that consistently practiced discrimination on ethnic and religious grounds, so I am extremely well versed on the subject. At my company, all promotions were given to Arabs and 'good Muslims' regardless of qualifications. The job of many of the rest of us consisted of covering up mistakes they made or making sure that the work was done when they were shirking their responsibilities. Yes, luckily some of the management staff were hard working and qualified, and my own department was the only department not under the command of the top imbeciles. But it was truly annoying to watch good people passed over for promotions for decades while some of the most dishonest and lazy people kept climbing the corporate ladder.

In any case, it gave me an excellent understanding, albeit in reverse, of what ethnic minorities complain about in 90% of the other companies. And I did have the satisfaction for many years of being acknowledged by all of the other employees (yes, even the lazy and incompetent ones) as being the best person to represent their interests and defend them in labour disputes (of which there were many) since I was elected by them with 100% of the vote. And even though it took two years to negotiate the termination indemnities of half of the staff, everybody was quite satisfied with the result.