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Brexit
May 15, 2018 15:57:29 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 15, 2018 15:57:29 GMT
Yes, I was exaggerating by mentioning those two (European) countries, but I believe that the influence of the UK will still fall behind numerous rising powers such as Brazil, Russia, Australia, Argentina, India, Iran, or Nigeria, to name just a few.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 16:08:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 15, 2018 16:08:55 GMT
If there was a similar referendum in all the EU countries I wonder what the results would be?
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 16:23:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 15, 2018 16:23:23 GMT
Yes, I was exaggerating by mentioning those two (European) countries, but I believe that the influence of the UK will still fall behind numerous rising powers such as Brazil, Russia, Australia, Argentina, India, Iran, or Nigeria, to name just a few. Do you believe it or hope for it?
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 16:41:30 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 15, 2018 16:41:30 GMT
I actually really believe it. Any country that has voluntarily chosen to decline almost certainly will.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 16:44:22 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 15, 2018 16:44:22 GMT
If there was a similar referendum in all the EU countries I wonder what the results would be? Well, here is a poll from last year.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 17:07:31 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on May 15, 2018 17:07:31 GMT
I'm old and I voted to remain. Everybody I worked with at the time voted remain and there were tears in the lab the morning after the result was declared. Most of the scientists and medical staff were under 40, so they don't remember a time before we were members of the EU. We are involved in numerous research and development programmes funded primarily by the EU. The tories are more likely to fund private research that will actually bleed cash from the NHS. My colleagues and I feel like we are Europeans, staff come here to train and to help prop up a floundering NHS because our own children don't want to work in hospitals..we've dumbed down our education system so much, fed the masses with rubbish tv and allowed our newspapers to lie to their readers. The students we got from our European neighbours are hard working, polite and extremely intelligent. Many British students (not all I hasten to add, but too many) were lazy narcissists with an attitude problem, a poor grasp of science and an inflated opinion of their own worth. Thanks to the EU we have the working time directive, improved working conditions, safety and rigid standards of practice that have made hospitals a safer palace to be. It's OUR politicians who stuffed up, they'd rather spend money on private companies (that they have interests in) than spend it on what the EU suggest. My BiL is a farmer and the money he got from the EU fund helped him to carry on when our supermarkets squeeze him until he thought he'd have to sell the farm. I think that the media has always demonized the EU ....rags like the Sun, Mail, Express and similar have whipped up the voters into a frenzy...I can understand (to a certain extent) the inevitability of Brexit when idiots like Farage and Johnson are given air time as if they had anything of interest to say....I can also sympathise with the older voter who has fond memories of a time when the Commonwealth (which has its origins in colonialism doesn't it?) were our primary trading partners. I have tremendous respect for both Mick and Mossie and I'm sure that they've thought long and hard before they made the decision to vote leave, we just think differently I don't have fond memories of the time before the EU. I'm scared. I'm not particularly politically savvy and I'm not eloquent like some are on here..but I'm desperately unhappy about the decision made to leave and think we shot ourselves in the foot. I hope that I'm proved wrong. Sorry. I'll get my coat...
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 17:12:21 GMT
Post by mickthecactus on May 15, 2018 17:12:21 GMT
I actually really believe it. Any country that has voluntarily chosen to decline almost certainly will. Actually we chose to leave the cosy club....
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 17:51:43 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 15, 2018 17:51:43 GMT
Exactly.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:13:35 GMT
Post by mickthecactus on May 15, 2018 18:13:35 GMT
Cheery, you are exceptionally eloquent and a lovely person to boot.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:27:22 GMT
Post by mickthecactus on May 15, 2018 18:27:22 GMT
As is Kerouac.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:31:09 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on May 15, 2018 18:31:09 GMT
We're all lovely xxx
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:32:05 GMT
Post by bjd on May 15, 2018 18:32:05 GMT
Never say you aren't eloquent, Cheery. You have put your point very well.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:38:01 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on May 15, 2018 18:38:01 GMT
That's kind of you to say, I never seem to express my argument to my own satisfaction tho...
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:40:14 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on May 15, 2018 18:40:14 GMT
Never say you aren't eloquent, Cheery. You have put your point very well. So true! In fact, she always does.
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 18:43:32 GMT
Post by cheerypeabrain on May 15, 2018 18:43:32 GMT
Bolshy...that's me xxx
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 20:06:43 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on May 15, 2018 20:06:43 GMT
I think everyone in the UK who thinks that trade and other agreements with the US will take up any slack left after pulling out of the EU should take a hard look at how fast the the US's star is falling.
Of course I am speaking as an outsider, but Cheery's view that it's the UK's own politicians that undermine the UK is all that I can see as well. Do remember that I am from a country which lately has very much specialized in shooting itself in its own foot. Much of this appears to be because of manipulating the public with half-truths, outright lies, and fear of the unknown. If the US's stance on medical care doesn't prove that, I don't know what does. (Oh yeah -- that thing that happened in Nov. '16.)
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Brexit
May 15, 2018 20:59:28 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 15, 2018 20:59:28 GMT
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Brexit
May 16, 2018 17:36:44 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 16, 2018 17:36:44 GMT
I am still thinking (seriously) about various aspects of Brexit and not just the NHS joke that so many people fell for;
One thing that intrigues me is what the British would have thought if a country like France had left the EU? I choose France because the UK and France are the countries with the most similar populations and economies. Do you think that France would succeed brilliantly by leaving the EU? It would lose all of the EU trade deals and have to negotiate everything separately. You can forget the former French colonies in Africa, just as you can forget most of the Commonwealth countries, because they already have ironclad trade deals with the EU and would have absolutely no interest in abandoning them for a little isolated country.
Of course, France would save a lot more money than the UK on EU contributions, since the current percentages of budget contributions are:
Germany 19.90% France 17.76% Italy 13.57% United Kingdom 10.70% Spain 9.15%
Then again, perhaps the percentage paid pro rata according to the population is more important:
Netherlands Sweden Germany Denmark Finland Austria France United Kingdom Italy Ireland
All of the other countries receive more than they pay.
Everybody knows that France receives the biggest amount from the EU for agriculture, but then again, it has the biggest agricultural industry in Europe. In fact, it is the second largest agricultural exporting country in the world after the United States. This might sound like a good reason to leave the EU and ransom the other countries for food except for the fact that only 3.8% of the population lives off agriculture. It's 2% in the UK, which is only half as much as Ireland.
Anyway, these are just a few of the elements that I think should have been discussed before the referendum was held instead of railing about EU "rules" which protect most of us, bureaucrats in Brussels (if the EU headquarters had been in London, what would people have said about that?), or certain countries that don't always do things of which we approve (but that has nothing to do with being in an international organisation or not).
There is still a lot of uncertainty about the future, but it's not looking good for the UK in my personal opinion.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 13:11:54 GMT
Post by questa on May 17, 2018 13:11:54 GMT
Cheery, your explanation and personal experience have given me the understanding of the situation that I couldn't see at the time of the vote. There were many words written but it was all over my head. Thanks for the clarification.
Years ago when UK joined the Common Market, Australia lost its biggest market for just about everything we produced. Great was the anger at what was seen as betrayal until the Australians metaphorically raised a middle digit to the UK and turned to the millions in Asia who wanted our goods and services.
Now there are those who watch to see if this new arrangement leads UK hopping into bed with 'our' markets and cutting us out again.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 13:21:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 17, 2018 13:21:14 GMT
Indeed, I was really sorry to be dumping Australia. I hope you will forgive us and take us back!
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 14:19:17 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2018 14:19:17 GMT
And then again, the carbon footprint of doing a lot of one's trade with countries on the other side of the world rather than nearby countries is probably not the greatest thing to encourage if there is any interest in the environment.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 16:46:32 GMT
Post by bixaorellana on May 17, 2018 16:46:32 GMT
Reading post #317 again, I marvel at how anyone could think that the UK's leaving its alliance with Europe could possibly work in the UK's favor in this day and age. On trade alone, it's going to have to negotiate individually with countries which may or may not cede the same advantages they now tender through EU membership. For instance, the EU and Mexico are poised to sign off on a new, mutually beneficial agreement at the end of 2018. This is the kind of thing the UK is set to freeze itself out of.
But looming over all, I would think, is London's current status as the most powerful financial center in the world -- something it may well lose after Brexit.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 17:04:14 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2018 17:04:14 GMT
I am not a big fan of banks, but it appears that they are a source of pride in certain countries. Apparently, the UK will become much lighter after Brexit and may gain in elevation when all of those heavy trillions in assets are moved out. It looks like Frankfurt is the big winner, followed by Paris and Dublin. Frankfurt Is the Big Winner in Battle for Brexit BankersNot all that many jobs are concerned -- 10,000? 20,000? -- so it's not that big a deal if it didn't affect other parts of the economy. I am not qualified to say. I would be extremely interested in hearing from Brexiters about the concrete advantages of leaving the EU, i.e. not just "we won't have to follow their rules anymore" and "we won't have to pay a ransom to Brussels" but exactly what the expected economic benefits will be. What are the new wonders in store for you?
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 17:46:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 17, 2018 17:46:22 GMT
As far as I am aware it’s only me and Mossie who are the pariahs.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 17:50:46 GMT
Post by onlyMark on May 17, 2018 17:50:46 GMT
I would expect that anyone who voted to leave would not disagree that economically it will be a trying time. I also doubt that anyone at all can predict what the situation will be in say ten years time, nobody has predicted anything correctly so far anyway. I doubt that any who voted to leave could come up with facts and figures that support their reason and it be their only reason for voting that way. I should think most would know they are on a hiding to nothing if they tried to justify it in monetary terms. But, emotionally? That's a different matter.
Mick, me too.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 17:54:18 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2018 17:54:18 GMT
You are not at all pariahs, but I think that the rest of us a trying to understand your position. I'm sure that there are other Brexiters among us (OnlyMark?) who are hesitant about entering the fray, possibly because it appears to be more of an issue based on gut emotions rather than facts. (I might be wrong.) I have had my own "gut emotion" issues in the past and have voted for them even when I knew there was not the slightest chance of winning.
The big difference is that you have won, so I would hope for a little more enthusiasm (backed up by hard facts if at all possible). I really would not want to think that you voted for something and have become unsure of your position.
(cross posted with Mark)
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 19:21:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 17, 2018 19:21:09 GMT
I will respond in a few days but I need to be in front of a screen and that won’t happen until next week.
There won’t be a wonderful economic reasoning though - way beyond my ability but there will be other reasons that may not be so obvious.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 19:23:39 GMT
Post by mossie on May 17, 2018 19:23:39 GMT
Questa makes a very valid point. I was disgusted that the E.U forced us to abandon our old Commonwealth partners in order to toe their line. Ditto the demolition of our fishing industry, local ports here like Gt Yarmouth and Lowestoft have become real depressed areas with many out of work. These are only two of the factors which turned me into a confirmed 'Leave at all costs'.
Walking in Paris recently I came across a statue of Churchill, with a quote from his speech in June 1940. "We shall never surrender". We had been deserted by France, who opposed us from Vichy, and left to face the Nazis alone, albeit with valuable help from men from our Commonwealth and patriots from various European countries who came here when their homes were overrun. With regards to France, I know de Gaulle came here and rallied some Frenchmen to him, but don't forget we had to sink their fleet threatening us at Oran, and also fight them in Syria and elsewhere. This at a time when our backs were hard up against the wall, and we were facing defeat. I think I have told of my wartime experiences as a child, i.e. "When the Germans come, you boys are to put sugar in their petrol tanks".
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 19:52:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickthecactus on May 17, 2018 19:52:30 GMT
De Gaulle didn’t want us in his Europe. We weren’t up to the standard required.
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Brexit
May 17, 2018 20:54:44 GMT
Post by kerouac2 on May 17, 2018 20:54:44 GMT
You are so modern with your references to events almost 80 years ago!
Perhaps you should bring the British empire back so that the sun will never set.
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